The Hobbit - Chapter 17 - The Clouds Burst - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Bêthberry · 05-23-2006, 07:44 AM

Just a few quick thoughts here about a chapter known mainly for its exciting battle description.

Thorin's stubborness reminds me of Tolkien's thoughts about ofermod in The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth. Yes, there is ample explanation here that Thorin is overcome with greed, yet at the same time there is this terrible sense of honour, of not backing down from a position, of pride. Did the dwarves follow Thorin even though they thought him wrong because of their sense of conduct, just as the Anglo Saxons followed Beorhtnoth? As subordinates, love and loyalty are at their highest and personal pride their lowest. And for Thorin, his excess would have lead to a terrible battle had not the goblins interceded. Beyond "the bleak heroic necessity to excess--chivalry." Does this chapter show Tolkien's ideas about the difference between heroism and mere chivalry? And are hasty words and excessive pride only overcome by an overwhelming threat from another enemy? I suppose battle is more stirring than negotiation in a boys' adventure story.

Does this chapter contain the only reference Tolkien made to vampires?

05-23-2006, 07:44 AM	#4
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Just a few quick thoughts here about a chapter known mainly for its exciting battle description. Thorin's stubborness reminds me of Tolkien's thoughts about ofermod in The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth. Yes, there is ample explanation here that Thorin is overcome with greed, yet at the same time there is this terrible sense of honour, of not backing down from a position, of pride. Did the dwarves follow Thorin even though they thought him wrong because of their sense of conduct, just as the Anglo Saxons followed Beorhtnoth? As subordinates, love and loyalty are at their highest and personal pride their lowest. And for Thorin, his excess would have lead to a terrible battle had not the goblins interceded. Beyond "the bleak heroic necessity to excess--chivalry." Does this chapter show Tolkien's ideas about the difference between heroism and mere chivalry? And are hasty words and excessive pride only overcome by an overwhelming threat from another enemy? I suppose battle is more stirring than negotiation in a boys' adventure story. Does this chapter contain the only reference Tolkien made to vampires? __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.