The Ring of Saruman?

[Mänwe]

My take on the matter is in agreement with the majority of the comments made. You are agreed that his ring was one not nearly as potent as the Ruling Ring, it was in all intent and purposes a disaster.

It is clear that he made it because he had the skill with which to do so, you have all said he was Mair of Aule;

"...but Curunír went most among Men, and he was subtle in speech and skilled in all the devices of smith-craft." -

"But Saruman now began to study the lore of the Rings of Power, their making and their history." - Silmarillion, Of the Rings Of Power

However it becomes clear that his studying of the art is something that he did not gain to a great proficiency. Otherwise had he learnt the secrets that Sauron had learnt and used in the forging of the Ruling Ring, then he would have had no need to have searched for it. Thus I think it is likely his ring was an experimentation, the pinnacle of his skill for his time was ever devoted to the search of the One.

'Sauman uses the term Ring-maker and Gandalf tells us that Saruman had a ring on his finger- but the logic chain connecting the two is tenuous indeed.

There is absolutely no overwhelming objective evidence to show that Gandalf's comment and Saruman's statement are in any way aligned.

The term Ring-maker is one of the names of Sauron, and the significance of Saruman using that term is that in his pride and folly he is setting himself up to rival the Dark Lord- and seeking to impress/intimidate Gandalf in doing so. (Gandalf is already aware of this name as one for Sauron -cf. FOTR-The Shadow of the Past).

If Saruman had been referring to himself as one who has made a ring he would have said 'ring-maker' - uncapitalized. The capitalized version 'Ring-maker' is one of Sauron's names - and Saruman would be well aware of this.

Moreover, we know from HOME 7 The Treason of Isengard , that Tolkien had removed a reference that might have inclined the reader towards thinking that Saruman had created a ring, and included the term Ring-maker only in the published version. It does not appear in earlier drafts.

An examination of the relevant drafts of the Council of Elrond shows the following:

The Council of Elrond(1) 'He wore a ring on his finger ' stands, but there is no reference to Ring-maker.

The Council of Elrond(2) as (1) but with the inclusion of a comment preceding "He wore" which states , 'and it was at one time rumoured that he had come near to the secret of their making.'

This too, disappears from the published version.

And, even if we assume, for arguments sake, that he had made a Ring, and the evidence is far too slight to prove that he had, it clearly had been a wasted effort as it is never referred to again in the whole of Lord of the Rings and apparently was put to no use whatsoever.

I think on balance that Saruman did not make a Ring, which is why Tolkien made the textual amendments between the earlier drafts and the final form.

[narfforc]

Sorry Manwe but I do not agree. Let us look at the one sentence, in which he describes himself:

1. Saruman the Wise, well that goes without saying, he was so he thought.

2. Saruman of Many Colours, he is not telling us how many different coloured undergarments he possessed, Gandalf tells us the truth of this statement.

3. Saruman Ring-maker, ?

So how can we believe one part of the statement and not another, if Tolkien left that in the published version of his work, whilst alive, then that is one that counts.
So if Saruman was only calling himself Ring-maker because it was one of the multitude of names attached to Sauron, why didnt Tolkien include that as an explanation, because the words speak for themselves, we don't need an explanation.

Now if Gandalf had not mentioned a Ring, it would have given more weight to your argument ie: if Gandalf had only mentioned the words Ring-maker.

[Mänwe]

nafforc can we be certain though that Saruman made it? Although there are quotes to show that he was skilled at craft, the ring we could surmise although there is no reference to this, could be one of Aules making, a sigil that showed he was a Mair of Aule.

I apologise for not making my mind clear as I meant. I as ever strive to produce a balanced post, one that usually contradicts my own arguement. I think the most important part of the post is really my conclusion, which holds in agreement with every one else; there is simply not enough information to prove either way.

[narfforc]

I agree Manwe that there is not much evidence either way, and that is the whole point of why we suppose or surmise, I welcome your point of view to this thread, your stand point has much validity, yet in my view I would like to think that Saruman had set his foot on the first rung of the ladder towards making his ring of power, he had that capability, desire and motivation.

[Rhod the Red]

"I would like to think that Saruman had set his foot on the first rung of the ladder towards making his ring of power, he had that capability, desire and motivation." Seconded.

[Mänwe]

nafforc and Rhod, a deeply unsettling thought. I put to you the question,

"When was it created?"

Would we agree it was made before he left for Middle Earth on his 'mission' or while he was in Middle Earth? I would also question, if he had indeed crafted it while he was residing in Middle Earth, would this be seen as breaking the rule set to the five Istari by the Valar.

"...were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt." - The Istari, Unfinished Tales

Could the attempted forging of a ring of power go against the rules here? In arguement that it is, well they were instructed to "advise and unite" not challenge the dominance or Sauron nor control men's wills, if we are to assume that perhaps his ring was to help him in this endevour.

However I think there is more against this theory. I assume had he broken the 'rules' then there would have been some sort of intervention from the Valar, thus his ring did not bring about any upheaval. Though still sufficient to warrant Gandalf's attention.

I would value your views and comments.

[narfforc]

The very desire of the One Ring was enough to corrupt, and as is said: It is dangerous to study too deeply the arts of the enemy. Saruman would have crafted the ring at some stage after his corruption, and well into his sojourn in Middle-earth, and as for breaking the rules that had been set on The Istari, he had probably broken most of them by the time he had made his ring. That brings us to The Valar, they did not directly intercede against Sauron, so I presume they would not against Saruman, they knew how dangerous it was to incarnate Maiar into The Istari, if they had wanted to have kept them from turning, they should not have given them the weakness's of the body.

[ninja91]

A very interesting topic you bring up. Certainly, if the ring was very powerful and/or destructive, Tolkien would have made a much larger deal about it, and it probably would have been described more. But Tolkien did not just write that for kicks...

[narfforc]

For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in the bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though by their noble spirits they did not die and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good................

............But none of these chances were impossible to be; for, strange indeed this may seem the Istari, being clad in bodies of Middle-earth, might even as Men and Elves fall away from their purposes, and do evil, forgetting the good in search of power to effect it.

So to me it seems that the Valar had a great deal to do with setting the physical limitations of the incarnate bodies of the Istari, and therefore knew the possible implications thereof.

Did the study of the arts of the Enemy lead Saruman to create a ring, wishing to do good with it, yet turning his mind to evil, with the desire of the One Ring?

[Findegil]

Posted by narfforc:

Did the study of the arts of the Enemy lead Saruman to create a ring, wishing to do good with it, yet turning his mind to evil, with the desire of the One Ring?

At least the forging of a ring of power was considered as a sin, an act against rule of nature that Ilúvatar had made. So even if what we Gandalf did observe at the Finger of Saruman was an false attemp without any power , it would have been the result of a sinfull action.

Thus it might have been that the try to make a ring of power was Sarumans fist false step. As I see him Saruman was surely fascinated by the lore of Ringmaking that he study. What sources could he have for that study? Memory of surfing smiths are not very probable, since the Mírdain did surely defend their house to the last with Celebrimbor. So it must have been written scripts of the Mírdain that were send away with the Three rings or carried by Celeborn or found in the ruins. But that would mean Saruman could only learn what Sauron thought the elven smiths and probably less then that. But also the scripts would most likely dokument the state in whish the Elves were still happy with what they had done or did.
Thus an attemp to employe his knowledge would be natural.

Respectfully
Findegil

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Findegil

At least the forging of a ring of power was considered as a sin, an act against rule of nature that Ilúvatar had made.

But doesn't it therefore follow from that that Celebrimbor and the Mírdain sinned against Eru's law in making the Three Elven Rings?

They were corrupted by Sauron, and that led to the tainting of the Seven and the Nine. But the Three were used for good.

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

But doesn't it therefore follow from that that Celebrimbor and the Mírdain sinned against Eru's law in making the Three Elven Rings?

Clearly it was a 'sin' from Tolkien's point of view:

'But the Elves are not wholly good or in the right. Not so much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or without his assistance they were 'embalmers'. They wanted to have their cake & eat it; to live in the mortal historical Middle Earth because they had become fond of it (& because they there had the advantages of a superior caste) & so tried to stop its change & history, stop its growth, keep it as a pleasaunce, even largely a desert where they could be artists, & they were burdened with sadness & nostalgic regret''

They had 'flirted with Sauron' in the making of the rings, but their essential 'sin' was their desire to 'embalm' the world - which is what lead them to fall for Sauron's offer of aid.

Whether the Three were used for 'good' is a matter of opinion - I feel their use was rather a necessary evil. They were used to fight Sauron, but in the wrong way - principally by 'freezing' chunks of M-e into stasis. Of course, that was really the only way they could be used & they were the only weapons the Elves had to hand (or at least the most powerful).

Saruman had clearly adopted an 'Elvish' mindset at first & its easy to see that he could have been drawn to try & create a ring of his own originally not to emulate Sauron, but rather the Elven Lords. In other words he was probably driven at first by the desire to create another 'Elven' ring in order to strengthen the power of the opposition to Sauron. Unfortunately, his mindset moves from the Elven (desire to 'preserve') to the Sauronian (desire to rule).

Originally Posted by Ninja91

A very interesting topic you bring up. Certainly, if the ring was very powerful and/or destructive, Tolkien would have made a much larger deal about it, and it probably would have been described more. But Tolkien did not just write that for kicks...

Yet Tolkien was perfectly capable of introducing objects simply for the sake of the plot & then simply forgetting all about them - the Book of Mazarbul for instance. 'Saruman ring-maker' just sounds evocative.....

[ninja91]

Well, the point is that we dont know what this ring of Saruman could do. It is possible that it was on par with the great rings, but it was never able to be used to its full extent, probably because Saruman did not live much in the mind of evil to put it to terrible purposes.