Saruman the Good

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Sardy

Also, Saruman would have used his extensive Ring-lore for GOOD. Since we know he constructed some sort of ring for himself (open to much speculation) he might've devised something for use against the Enemy.

Perhaps, though making a ring to battle Sauron might fall under the category of attempting to use the Enemy's tools, a strategy of which the author would most likely not have approved.

[Sardy]

Originally Posted by Celuien

Perhaps, though making a ring to battle Sauron might fall under the category of attempting to use the Enemy's tools, a strategy of which the author would most likely not have approved.

Yes, but we're speculating on a GOOD Saruman, here---a plot device of which the author most assuredly DIDN'T appove...

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by Sardy

Yes, but we're speculating on a GOOD Saruman, here---a plot device of which the author most assuredly DIDN'T appove...

Quite true, though I think that the mere act of making a ring for the purpose of challenging Sauron would have required turning bad, or at least ambiguous. To defeat Sauron at his own game, a desire for power would almost certainly come into play. The ring's power has to include something to allow its bearer to have the ability to control others into taking action, and something to give sheer power greater than Sauron. The story takes on a different moral theme if Saruman makes a 'bigger and badder' ring to defeat Sauron. Instead of the weak triumphing through adversity because they clung to the right path, it becomes a battle of wills of the great and mighty. It's a slippery slope for Saruman to then have lust for power and control emerge after the use of power that would have been required to defeat Sauron through the use of a ring. Thus, I can't imagine a good Saruman even considering making one.

Now, using his ring lore for good is an entirely different matter, and one that good-Saruman could certainly have been helpful with...

[Sardy]

Originally Posted by Celuien

Quite true, though I think that the mere act of making a ring for the purpose of challenging Sauron would have required turning bad...

Possibly. But I tend to think that there is much, much more to ring-lore and craft than just making an evil ruling ring. I think that Sauron's use of "evil" in designing his ring was a bit of an enigma. Surely the Three were not evil, nor any (or at least most) of the lesser rings crafted by the elves (and others?). I would assume that the many lesser rings that existed were (for the most part) not evil (or perhaps we would've heard more about them?)

What I'm getting at is that to design a ring-weapon might have gone against Tolkien's vision (though when dicussing and imagining alternate strategies and story-lines, I also think t's fair to consider alternate philosophies, ideals, strategies than Tolkien's, etc.) But if Saruman did posses the extensive ring-lore that he boasted (and, indeed, aligned himself with the good), either alone or with the elven-smiths, he could very consivably have crafted a ring to RESIST (as opposed to challenge) Sauron. Or a ring to of light powerful enough to usurp the One Ring's dark power... and so on...

With more knowledge of, and experts in, ring-lore active in Middle-earth, who knows what magical powers there might've been to behold? Perhaps even a magic ring arms race...

[ninja91]

well, there are obviously many different happenings that would not have occured. you all got me thinking! thanks!

[Lalwendë]

It's not entirely clear exactly what made Saruman go 'bad'. It could have been looking in the Palantir, it could have been his lust for the Ring. It could simply have been his proud nature. Either way, one thing caused him to reach that point and I think that this was his thirst for Ring Lore, which he came to regard as all-important in his own way of approaching the mission he had been set.

In contrast, Gandalf went out into the world and mixed with the people, and in this way he learned of what the Ring could do, and he also learned of its whereabouts. Saruman just learned as much Ring Lore as he could and retreated to Orthanc trusting that information would come to him.

Anyway, this is a roundabout way of getting to the point. I think that if Saruman had by chance not gone 'bad', his Ring Lore would have been the downfall of Middle-earth. Of course the Ring would have found its way to him as the others on the White Council would have deferred to his impressive knowledge and sought his advice and help. Even if Gandalf and Galadriel would have refused to touch the Ring, I think Saruman would not have resisted; his 'knowledge' would have deceived him and he would have attempted to deal with it. And there he would have been caught.

[Huinesoron]

Reading over this thread, I was intrigued by all the focus on how things would have changed if there was no attack at Parth Galen. But the actual big change happens much earlier: when Gandalf is not imprisoned by Saruman, but is free to return directly to the Shire once the Nazgul's mission becomes clear.

He would get back sometime in August, and if his goal is to protect Frodo and the Ring, his #1 best choice is to pull Frodo up onto his own horse and ride straight for Rivendell. Come September, Frodo is safe in the House of Elrond (with no companions!) while the Nine are still hunting for the Shire. They've exhausted the possibilities of the Vale of Anduin, and with no Wormtongue to point them in the right direction, they would... I guess try the far side of the mountains, on the assumption that Gollum probably met 'Baggins' while he was crossing the range? Which means they would reach the region of Rivendell on about the 23rd September.

Since this is still a novel, the Nine would feel that the Ring was in Rivendell (perhaps Bilbo steals it and puts it on), so Frodo's first encounter with the Shadow is when the Black Riders lay a siege of terror around Imladris. Glorfindel et al could drive off any they managed to chase down, but they're not likely to allow themselves to be caught against a river when they've got so much maneuvering space. And as soon as Sauron gets word of it, he's going to send them backup...

I think the only plan here is to slip Frodo out while the powers of Rivendell keep up the defence. The High Pass is impassable, and the open countryside south of Rivendell is, er, a terrible plan, so... they send him north with a single elf as guide (Gandalf has to stay - the Nine know he's there!). He can link up with the Rangers and the Sons of Elrond, who I think are out scouting at this point, and then try to sneak up through the Ettinmoors and old Angmar, pass north of Gundabad (out of which an army may well be marching south!), and journey east through the dragon-haunted wastes north of the Grey Mountains. It's not a terribly safe plan, but it may be the safest available, and it at least has the advantage of being unexpected.

This being a novel, I guess Frodo passes through Erebor and down the River Running, picking up and losing allies along the way. He'll eventually have to try and enter Mordor from the north - or maybe even the east! This version of the story probably requires him to ride a few horses...

You can twist even this version wildly just by changing some assumptions (maybe Gandalf and Saruman drive the Nazgul back from Rohan, and they never go west at all!). I think my point is that stories are fragile - the instant you make a change, it ripples against everything around it. Asking what would happen if the Fellowship didn't break, as if they'd still have formed, and still gone through Moria, is a bit like saying, "If Bilbo had never found the Ring, what would Frodo have thrown into Mount Doom?" - it misses all the differences that come before that point.

hS