Orcs... were elves?

[davem]

Short answer is that Tolkien altered his opinions on the subject. Originally they were corrupted Elves, but later he decided they were corrupted Men, or even a kind of organic 'robot'. During the period of LotR they were Elves but as with many things in the 'Legendarium' as he called it (ie the mythology as a whole) he altered & developed his ideas throughout his life.

This is one of those questions that would take an essay to answer in full, but the corrupted Elves idea was the one that Tolkien held to for most of his life, & the one that makes most sense in terms of the mythology.

EDIT

What you'll find with Tolkien's work is that the deeper you look into it for definitive answers the more you'll find confusions & contradictions. Only the main themes of the Legendarium found a fixed form - but the details & even some of the larger & more important ideas were subject to alteration - even published works like LotR & the Hobbit were revised after publication & changes were made.

Of course, if you want definitive answers you're in the wrong place - we like to argue too much here.

Word of warning - watch out for Lalwende - she's a troublemaker & will just get you into bother if you listen to her.

[Boromir88]

It really comes down to what you want to believe. It's clear that Tolkien's very LAST thoughts were that Orcs were taken in and corrupted men. But, Tolkien also played with the idea of Orcs coming form slime and rocks (which later he rejects), then it changes into being corrupted elves, and then switches all over the place. You can even make an argument that some orcs were Maiar that had taken an Orc form (Boldog for instance).

Let's start with the Elf theory. This occurs in the Silmarillion:

But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.~Of the Coming of Elves

There are a few things about this quote...

1) First off just notice "little is known of a certainty..." therefor, it can already be tossed up into the air and debated endlessly.

2) Also notice "this is held true by the wise of Eressea..." Orcs being from corrupted elves is what the "Wise of Eressea," believe, it's not necessarily what Tolkien felt. As Tolkien tells us with Treebeard in Letter 153:

Treebeard is a character in my story not me; though he has a great memory and some earthly wisdom, he is not one of the wise and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand.

The "Wise of Eressea" therefor, are characters in Tolkien and not necessarily what Tolkien feels about Orcs.

With that being said we do have this from HoME:

It remains therefore terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs. These may then even have been mated with beasts (sterile!) - and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End.~Morgoth's Ring, Myth's Transformed: Text VIII

So at this time (which is dated in 1955) Tolkien still felt like Orcs were originally started as Elves. And over the years as they began to mate with men and beasts the elvish blood-line diminished as well as their life span.

It's clear that in Tolkien's last thoughts he felt like Orcs would be best to be originated from corrupted Men, and if I'm not mistaken he even alters when Men first appear to fit this theory:

Let's first start out of The Annals of Aman (which is dated to be 1959 and also appears in Morgoth's Ring: Myth's transformed, Text X:

Alter this. Orcs are not Elvish

Tolkien continues on with the theory into Text X of Morgoth's Ring (1969):

Other originally independent creatures, and Men among them (but neither Elves nor Dwarves) could be reduced to a like condition. But ’puppets’, with no independent life or will, would simply cease to move or do anything at all when the will of their maker was brought to nothing.

Tolkien talks about Orcs being nearly complete puppets, and here he says with Men they could be reduced this this form of "puppetness," but it is impossible for Dwarves or Elves to be reduced to this state.

So, that's pretty much all the information there is and it comes down to what matter do you want to believe. An argument for them originating from Men is easier, because those were Tolkien's final thoughts on the matter and he even goes as far as to want to change that idea. If you're like me, who believes in both ideas. However, it would be hard to hold to the theory that Orcs are and always were corrupted Elves.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I've always just figured that since Morgoth was all about corruption and mockery that he would pretty much take whatever he could find, break it, and make it monstrous -- so I see no reason against having all the theories of orc origin at once. The orcs are a hybrid, bastard race drawn from ruined Elves, enslaved men, beasts, unnatural arts and perhaps another race (or races?) of beings that he found and took for his own. This might also help explain where there is such a diversity of forms, sizes, abilities, types and races among the orcs...

[davem]

Clearly the problem he had was that he was importing creatures from Faery into his secondary world, & had to make them 'fit'. Traditional Goblins were a race in their own right & had always been Goblins, never 'corrupted' versions of other beings.

In Tolkien's world, however, everything has its origin in Eru, who is, by His nature, purely Good. Hence, if evil exists in that world it has to have come from good & devolved or been corrupted in some way ('Evil is fissiparous, but cannot create'). So Tolkien has to find an explanation for the evil beings by having them devolve from something else or be mere 'robots' controlled by the mind & will of another being (Morgoth/Sauron).

Dwarves, by their nature, cannot really be corrupted in such a way, so it would have to be Elves or Men. Men causes a problem 'philosophically' as Orcs seem to be 'supernatural' beings, inhabitants of Faery, which Men really are not. Elves becoming Orcs solves this problem, but its clear that Tolkien liked his Elves too much & was increasingly uncomfortable with them being corrupted in that way.

Of course, Elves are 'angelic' beings & Orcs could fit well into the Fallen Angel/demon role.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

The orcs are a hybrid, bastard race drawn from ruined Elves, enslaved men, beasts, unnatural arts and perhaps another race (or races?) of beings that he found and took for his own. This might also help explain where there is such a diversity of forms, sizes, abilities, types and races among the orcs...

Could there even be Hobbit derived Orcses? Such an Orc might be a narfforc - only he can answer that one.

Originally Posted by davem

Of course, Elves are 'angelic' beings & Orcs could fit well into the Fallen Angel/demon role.

Now davem has been cheeky about me and I no longer have the opportunity to sneak something nasty in his evening meal I shall just argue with him. I'm not at all sure we could call Elves 'angelic beings' at all. They are symbolic of men as they might be, but not divine. The only Elves who might even approach being Divine are the Eldar, and I am not even sure about them to be honest. Arda already has the Valar and Maiar, just how many angelic beings can it hold?

I also like the idea that Orcs are bred from several races, as it does allow for the many varieties. But if they were descended from Elves it also makes for a lot of interesting possibilities - e.g. could the Elvish nature be entirely taken form them? Were they immortal? What happened when they died? etc.

Possibly the reason Tolkien gradually shied away from having his Orcs derive from Elves was his semmingly growing need to make his work more 'divine', as shown in his later rewrites of Galadriel's character and nature. I happen to think that he had it right with LOTR. The Orcs being descended from Elves does not diminish Elves, rather it makes a greater tragedy that these beings could be reduced to such an existence. I suppose in that sense, if they were angelic then it would deepen that tragedy even more.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I also like the idea that Orcs are bred from several races, as it does allow for the many varieties. But if they were descended from Elves it also makes for a lot of interesting possibilities - e.g. could the Elvish nature be entirely taken form them? Were they immortal? What happened when they died? etc.

Only Orks with pureblooded Elven ancestry (tormented by Morgoth or no) would be immortal. Tolkien stated, with regards to Half-Elves, that they were inherently mortal, sharing the Gift of Men. Only those to whom the Choice was given: Eärendil, Elwing, Elrond, and Elros had a choice. The default setting was mortality, and so Dior, Elured, and Elurin died indeed and are gone beyond the circles of the World. It can also be taken as an explanation for why the Elven-choosing next generation of the family: Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen, were given a Choice, whereas the Sons of Elros were stuck with their father's lot.

It therefore follows that part-Elf Orks would not have been Immortal. They would likely have inherited many other Elvish traits and there would certainly have been great enmity between Elf and Ork, but unless an Ork was of pure "Elvish" ancestry, he (or she) would not have been immortal within the circles of the world.

[Boromir88]

Only Orks with pureblooded Elven ancestry (tormented by Morgoth or no) would be immortal.~Formendacil

But the question is were there ever any "pure-blooded" through and through Elf corrupted into an Orc. We are told this from Home X, but it goes along with the "Man Origin."

They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills they were not immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain

Again this applies more directly to the Mannish Origin, but it is (as far as I know) the only quote that talks about Orc life-span. Also notice that even the Elves believe Orcs were not immortal.

[Raynor]

It must be pointed out that Myths Transformed, to which you reffered repeatedly, contradicts _a lot_ of the whole of Tolkien's literature, so that I would refrain from giving it more weight when it comes to contradicting other texts. In another thread, I made several comments on it too.

There are some serious obstacles in accepting the version of the Sun and Moon as given in Myths Transformed. The opening salvo is: "At that point (in reconsideration of the early cosmogonic parts) I was inclined to adhere to the Flat Earth and the astronomically absurd business of the making of the Sun and Moon."

As Tolkien himself recounts, a minor loss would that of dramatic impact (no first incarnates walking in a starlit world, no unfolding of the elven banners at the first rising of the moon). More serious that this is the fact that the cosmological myth of the Silmarillion comes out as a "creative error". Moreover, in Christopher's words:

"As he stated it, this may seem to be an argument of the most doubtful nature, raising indeed the question, why is the myth of the Two Trees [as being created from the sun, not the other way around] (which so far as record goes he never showed any intention to abandon) more acceptable than that of the creation of the Sun and the Moon from the last fruit and flower of the Trees as they died? Or indeed, if this is true, how can it be acceptable that the Evening Star is the Silmaril cut by Beren from Morgoth's crown?"

The problem that seems to be at hand is that Tolkien considered the Sil. to be too "primitive" in nature; primitive, but not _absurd_. The here discarded myth cannot be excised as a "gratuitous element", since it is closely related to the two trees giving light to Valinor, while ME was in darkness - and it is in darkness that the elves had to wake, under the light of the stars (not of the sun).

Moreover, Tolkien concludes that Men should awake during the Great March - now this doesn't leave _that_ much weight to the stature of the elves as firstborn, does it?

Before the making of Utumno (and the waking of the elves) Melkor ravishes Arien - and it is thus burned and "his brightness darkened" - how then could he appear in fair form to the Men he would later corrupt? [Another problematic idea presented in M.T. is that Fionwe was son of Manwe, which is pretty much against my understaing of his Legendarium.]

To conclude with Christopher's words concerning this particular theory of Sun and Moon: "It seems to me that he was devising – from within it – a fearful weapon against his own creation".

And what about the rejected flat-earth theory? No walls of the night & co? Why would the elves call Men children of the sun if the sun was there from the begining? On the whole, I would go with the "mixed origin", since it is the least contradicting one.