Saruman the Good

[tom bombariffic]

would have been a whole different book!

Loads of implications, wouldn't necessarily have worked out though...for example pippin would not have looked into the palantir, thus jeapordising the entire ending!

On balabce thoguh, I'm sure with the help of isengard, it would have worked out in the end though, even though it would have been very different. Something tells me Gandalf and Saruman together would not have been defeated.

bombariffic

[Mithalwen]

However, the orcs who attacked at Parth Galen were Saruman's orcs. Although the breaking of the fellowship seemed catastrophic at the time it was vital for the success of the Quest.

The ring would not have been destroyed without the intervention of Gollum at the last moment. If there had not been the attack at Parth Galen it would have been a different and larger group going to Mordor. My guess is that they would not have got so far as the 2 hobbits alone guided by the duplicitous Gollum.

The other key to the success ofthe quest was the emptying of Mordor of troops at the vital time. While Helms' Deep weakened the Rohirrim it did put them in a state of readiness that by the time the red arrow arrived they were already on their way. Also without the pursuit of the Hobbits into Rohan, Aragorn would surely not have been taking the paths of the Dead as his route into Gondor. The two fortuitous arrivals of the armies of Rohan and the Dead enabled the Captains of the West to hold off the enemy at Minas Tirith and create the diversion at the Black gates.

A good Saruman would not have hadTheoden under a malign influence and without that Eowyn might not have been desperate enough to ride to war and fulfil the Prophecy of Gloprfindel regarding the Witch King (especially since she would nothave met Aragorn).

If Boromir had survived (no orc attack remember!), I can't see Denethor killing himself regardless of what happened of Faramir, This would have shifted the dynamic of the Lords of the West. Denethor would still be influenced by the gloomy visions of hte Palantir and it is not hard to imagine that he would have not supported the attack on the Black Gate as the more positive Imrahil did.


In short ... tom bomabariffic is right it would be a very different book!

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

But isn't this just what happened when Gandalf became the White? He pretty clearly states that he is Saruman, or "Saruman as he was meant to be." So when Saruman went evil, he was replaced by Gandalf who became the new/true Saruman: Saruman the White/Good.

Which makes me think. If Gandalf the White really is "Saruman as he was meant to be" then does not this imply that it was Saruman's role to rally Rohan, save Minas Tirith and Crown Aragorn? Maybe this all ties back to Gandalf's other claim that he is "a steward" -- Saruman is properly the white, but he (like the line of Isildur) "has failed" and so his role is taken up by his steward Gandalf.

[Boromir88]

To add a little bit more, if Saruman had not turned to "evil" there would be no reason for Gandalf to recieve a "power boost," and come back after dying in his fight with the Balrog.

As Fordim points out "Gandalf was as Saruman should have been." And if Saruman stayed the right course and had not left the "path to wisdom," then Eru would have no reason to send Gandalf back:

For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had a far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the Rules': for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance to Sauron successfully, and all his mission was vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success....

That I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. [...]He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure.~Letter 156

When Gandalf battles the balrog he's putting his entire task, and fate of Middle-earth on the line. In the Fellowship he is the only one who could have stopped the Balrog, but with Saruman turning to bad, he was the only Istari left that could complete the task and help Middle-earth against Sauron. The Istari were sent by the Vala, and when they "failed" (except for Gandalf) Eru took up the plan and enhanced Gandalf's abilities because he was the only one of the Istari that would be able to complete the task. And it was to counter Saruman.

Had Saruman not gone bad, there would be no reason to send back Gandalf, because Saruman would be the one doing what Gandalf had done when he returned as "Gandalf the White."

I will say if Saruman had not gone "bad," it probably would have made the people's of Middle-earth's lives a lot easier.

[Mithalwen]

It did make me think that if Gandalf returned in order to be Saruman as he should have been if Faramir walked out of the woods of Ithilien to be Boromir as he should have been. There was a thread a year or so ago about how various charaters were foils for others I think... perhaps I should try to find it and resurrect it..

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Aren't we missing a rather obvious point...? If Saruman had not fallen and decided to emulate Sauron, then there would have been NO ill-effect of the War felt in the Shire. The lessons that the hobbits learned from that essential episode would have been lost -- in effect, the Quest of the Ringbearer would have been, in this case, an utter waste since his return would have had no impact of any sort on his world; it would have been allowed to run on, uninterrupted and happily oblivious to the dangers which surrounded and threatened it.

Without Saruman the Bad, there would have been no need to fight to reclaim the Shire (so Merry and Pippin's abilities as warriors would have been mere vainglory -- like Boromir -- rather than active principles of defense and self-sacrifice for a beloved homeland -- like Faramir), no need to redeem it (so Sam's hard fought wisdom would have found no ground in which to plant the seed of what he had learned and brought back), no chance for the hobbits to prove that they are worthy of such a paradise as they've been given (Frodo would not have been able to seal their victory over the bad with an act of profound mercy).

[Mithalwen]

You are presupposing that in the changed circumstances all the hobbits would have survived and the war was won.....

[Lalwendë]

Well, that's a pretty big 'what if' question! Saruman not going 'bad' would just about alter the whole story! Which just goes to show how pivotal he is to the plot.

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

But isn't this just what happened when Gandalf became the White? He pretty clearly states that he is Saruman, or "Saruman as he was meant to be." So when Saruman went evil, he was replaced by Gandalf who became the new/true Saruman: Saruman the White/Good.

Which makes me think. If Gandalf the White really is "Saruman as he was meant to be" then does not this imply that it was Saruman's role to rally Rohan, save Minas Tirith and Crown Aragorn? Maybe this all ties back to Gandalf's other claim that he is "a steward" -- Saruman is properly the white, but he (like the line of Isildur) "has failed" and so his role is taken up by his steward Gandalf.

I often wonder about the issue of Gandalf the White being 'Saruman as he was meant to be'. Of course, on one level it simply means that Gandalf has been given the status of leader of the Istari in Middle-earth as Saruman has revealed his treachery. But it also makes me wonder if this really is the same Gandal? He might be a Gandalf with a changed mission and changed status (even a changed personality as Bethberry pointed out a few weeks ago), but is he Gandalf at all?

Is this Gandalf the same Gandalf the Grey who came from Valinor or has a "New Gandalf" been sent back?

'Gandalf," the old man repeated, as if recalling from old memory a long disused word. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf."

It is as though a wizard is simply a blank page to be written on, or perhaps more like an Etch-a-Sketch! The picture of the wizard is drawn and then it is shaken up to remove it and a new wizard can be drawn in that space. I think this is something about the mysterious nature of the Maiar, that a form taken can be altered in this way; it means that there is no reason why New Gandalf could not resemble Saruman in some way.