Why Moria? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Rhod the Red · 05-18-2006, 03:38 AM

"even a fast sea voyage means needless extra time if you're starting in Rivendell." Hear, hear! Longer than over the Misty Mountains, certainly.

Tuor of Gondolin · 05-18-2006, 07:16 AM

Quote:

If you're starting in the Shire, yes. If you're starting at Rivendell- which is whether the decision to destroy the Ring was made, then it's about as far back to the Grey Havens as it is down to Rohan, and Rohan to Mordor is about the same as Belfalas to Mordor- so even a fast sea voyage means needless extra time if you're starting in Rivendell.

Ah, but sailing from the Grey Havens assumes they leave
Rivendell immediately after the Council, without waiting
some months. Plus going by sea avoids going over the
Misty Mountains in winter and/or past Orthanc.

alatar · 05-18-2006, 07:37 AM

The issue that I have with the 'Sailors of the Ring' plan is not only could the story be a bit more boring, but it allows for Sauron to attack the Ringbearer more readily. All roads at that time were watched, and the Council guessed that Sauron would assume the Ring would go west, not southeast. Even if Sauron could not stop the Ring getting on a boat, he would at least know where is was. What would the nine on a boat do against the Winged Nine? Isn't the reason that Sauron is put off is that, at times, he's not too sure exactly where the Ring is and who has it? And knowing that the Ring is on a boat that will be landing somewhere in the south, Sauron may overrun the lower part of Gondor sooner and just wait for the boat to arrive.

As the FotR travel through Middle Earth, smaller battles of the war are fought, and our troop gains the resilience and experience that they will need in the end of all things. No Moria, no powered up Gandalf and a Balrog sits unfought on Galadriel's flank. No elfstone, no Merry and Pippin in Fangorn, no Gandalf in Rohan, no Paths of the Dead, etc.

No Gollum.

My wish is that the FotR were able to take an even more circumspect route so that we could meet more peoples and see more magical places, and had a chance to explore Moria a bit more. What would Gimli be like if they recovered Durin's Axe?

Thinlómien · 05-18-2006, 07:51 AM

More speculation on sending the Ring to West here. I would like to repeat Mith's point, that the nazgûl didn't like water...

I would nearly pity them.

goldfinger · 05-18-2006, 09:19 AM

There is one big problem with going on the sea and that is the Corsairs of Umbar. Those guys nearly controlled all of the Bay of Belafalas.

Rhod the Red · 05-18-2006, 10:11 AM

"the Corsairs of Umbar. Those guys nearly controlled all of the Bay of Belafalas." Hear, hear! Thanks for mentioning that.

alatar · 05-18-2006, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

More speculation on sending the Ring to West here. I would like to repeat Mith's point, that the nazgûl didn't like water...

Surely it is documented that the Nazgûl did not like water, as the songs of the ever-vigilant Ulmo still ran within it. However, as we see at the Fords of Bruinen, when the Ring is near, the Nine will pursue it even if it means entering open moving elvish water. And if the wraiths were winged, they could attack the boat and not get their boots wet.

Texadan · 05-18-2006, 04:54 PM

Excellent discussion and I'm afraid I can't add to nor detract from the arguments for going the northern route. I hadn't thought of it before. But, some have reasoned the topic from JRRT's point of view rather than the Fellowships. In that case, suppose they had gone through the High Pass and Merry and Pippen had never entered Fangorn Forest....

Edit: Oops. Alatar had already mentioned that. I missed it some how the first time through.

Never mind.

Elu Ancalime · 05-18-2006, 06:26 PM

Besides the entire trip in general, it is interesting how the Fellowship never really had a plan to get throug each individual places.

Like Moria for example: If Every member knew they would have to skirmish some goblins, Gandalf might have said "Well, stick to your sword techniques, the hobbits need to stick close to use, Legolas will pwn with his bow, etc" But in every situation, it seems the just "wing it."

When they asked Aragorn about where they would be going after Gandalf fell, he knew they would be going to Lothlorien, but I remeber he said something to the effect of: "Perhaps Gandalf didnt even know what we were going to do." So maybe part of the reson to go to Lorien was to take counsel with The Lord and Lady. Every stage in the quset was taken one day at a time. Did this affect them after they chose the Fellowship in Rivendell? Because it didnt seem like Elrond would say, "Well, duh, your going though Moria", or the Redhorn Gate or High Pass.

Another thing that I wonder about: How did they propose to enter Mordor? Since originally the entire Fellowship was going to Orodruin, did they just assume they were going to "wing it" and sneak in through the Black Gate? Sureley they would have been opposed to the Cirith Ungol, but what about the Morgul Pass? And even though it is obvious that the Easterling Summer Camp was going on behind Mordor, was Time the only thing holding them back from going around the Ashen Mountains?

The CoE explained some of the ways they could not go, quickly dissmissing hiding the Ring, taking it to Valinor, or taking it to the Havens, but they did not talk about aking it to the havens to be taken to Mordor, and small variants like it. Little comments from Boromir about going through the Gap or around the Andrst were dissmised also, but was that really taken into consideration like it is here?

My question is this: How well did they plan their trip? Was Gandalf just going to improv along the way?
________
Ford t platform specifications

05-18-2006, 03:38 AM	#1
Rhod the Red Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 257	"even a fast sea voyage means needless extra time if you're starting in Rivendell." Hear, hear! Longer than over the Misty Mountains, certainly. __________________ Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia

05-18-2006, 07:37 AM	#3
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	The issue that I have with the 'Sailors of the Ring' plan is not only could the story be a bit more boring, but it allows for Sauron to attack the Ringbearer more readily. All roads at that time were watched, and the Council guessed that Sauron would assume the Ring would go west, not southeast. Even if Sauron could not stop the Ring getting on a boat, he would at least know where is was. What would the nine on a boat do against the Winged Nine? Isn't the reason that Sauron is put off is that, at times, he's not too sure exactly where the Ring is and who has it? And knowing that the Ring is on a boat that will be landing somewhere in the south, Sauron may overrun the lower part of Gondor sooner and just wait for the boat to arrive. As the FotR travel through Middle Earth, smaller battles of the war are fought, and our troop gains the resilience and experience that they will need in the end of all things. No Moria, no powered up Gandalf and a Balrog sits unfought on Galadriel's flank. No elfstone, no Merry and Pippin in Fangorn, no Gandalf in Rohan, no Paths of the Dead, etc. No Gollum. My wish is that the FotR were able to take an even more circumspect route so that we could meet more peoples and see more magical places, and had a chance to explore Moria a bit more. What would Gimli be like if they recovered Durin's Axe? __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

05-18-2006, 07:51 AM	#4
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	More speculation on sending the Ring to West here. I would like to repeat Mith's point, that the nazgûl didn't like water... I would nearly pity them. __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

05-18-2006, 10:11 AM	#6
Rhod the Red Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 257	"the Corsairs of Umbar. Those guys nearly controlled all of the Bay of Belafalas." Hear, hear! Thanks for mentioning that. __________________ Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia

05-18-2006, 06:26 PM	#9
Elu Ancalime Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Anador Posts: 476	Besides the entire trip in general, it is interesting how the Fellowship never really had a plan to get throug each individual places. Like Moria for example: If Every member knew they would have to skirmish some goblins, Gandalf might have said "Well, stick to your sword techniques, the hobbits need to stick close to use, Legolas will pwn with his bow, etc" But in every situation, it seems the just "wing it." When they asked Aragorn about where they would be going after Gandalf fell, he knew they would be going to Lothlorien, but I remeber he said something to the effect of: "Perhaps Gandalf didnt even know what we were going to do." So maybe part of the reson to go to Lorien was to take counsel with The Lord and Lady. Every stage in the quset was taken one day at a time. Did this affect them after they chose the Fellowship in Rivendell? Because it didnt seem like Elrond would say, "Well, duh, your going though Moria", or the Redhorn Gate or High Pass. Another thing that I wonder about: How did they propose to enter Mordor? Since originally the entire Fellowship was going to Orodruin, did they just assume they were going to "wing it" and sneak in through the Black Gate? Sureley they would have been opposed to the Cirith Ungol, but what about the Morgul Pass? And even though it is obvious that the Easterling Summer Camp was going on behind Mordor, was Time the only thing holding them back from going around the Ashen Mountains? The CoE explained some of the ways they could not go, quickly dissmissing hiding the Ring, taking it to Valinor, or taking it to the Havens, but they did not talk about aking it to the havens to be taken to Mordor, and small variants like it. Little comments from Boromir about going through the Gap or around the Andrst were dissmised also, but was that really taken into consideration like it is here? My question is this: How well did they plan their trip? Was Gandalf just going to improv along the way? ________ Ford t platform specifications Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 11:58 PM.

05-18-2006, 09:19 AM	#5
goldfinger Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: KC, Missouri Posts: 60	There is one big problem with going on the sea and that is the Corsairs of Umbar. Those guys nearly controlled all of the Bay of Belafalas.

05-18-2006, 04:54 PM	#8
Texadan Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2006 Location: East Texas Posts: 38	Excellent discussion and I'm afraid I can't add to nor detract from the arguments for going the northern route. I hadn't thought of it before. But, some have reasoned the topic from JRRT's point of view rather than the Fellowships. In that case, suppose they had gone through the High Pass and Merry and Pippen had never entered Fangorn Forest.... Edit: Oops. Alatar had already mentioned that. I missed it some how the first time through. Never mind.