I get knocked down but I get up again - you're never going to keep me down. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Farael · 05-15-2006, 03:57 PM

Hmmm maybe I used too many strong words on my last post. I did not mean for the elves to be called "cowards" but they sure are part of the "passive resistance" rather than the active one. Both kinds of resistance are important, someone has to be able to think for any active meassures to be effective.

Yet what I was trying to say is that the elves were knocked down and weren't really getting up again. As they had another way out (Valinor) they didn't need to get up, they could flee, and that's why we don't see them as active participants in battle and same reason why we don't see them die.. they keep themselves out of harm's way because they know that if they survive, sooner or later they can seek their way West.

davem · 05-15-2006, 04:15 PM

I suspect the truth is that the Elves have cut themselves off for so long that they've lost touch with what's really gong on in the world. The world they knew has changed & they haven't kept up. They were always essentially a backward looking people. They chose to isolate themselves from all change & ended up being left behind. The fact that Sauron was defeated with so little input from the Elves as a whole surely demonstrates how little they were needed by the end of the Third Age. They were lost in dreams of 'old, unhappy far off things, & battles long ago'. ('For God's sake, let us sit upon the ground
And tell sad stories of the death of kings'). They were no longer capable of being & doing what you expect of them. I think they played the part they were capable of playing. They had lost heart & hope of any victory they would consider worthy of the name. If a whole race can suffer from clinical depression I think the Elves came pretty close to doing so.

Firefoot · 05-15-2006, 05:02 PM

I don't think it's completely fair to forget that Sauron did send three assaults against Lorien out of Dol Guldur, and there was also fighting on the part of the Mirkwood Elves on the same day as the second assault. It's not like they were sitting at home knitting socks.

You can blame them for not leaving their land to fight with the Rohirrim and the Gondorians, but that's really not quite fair. The Dwarves and the Men of Dale didn't go either; they had to defend their own homes. And consider Theoden: he didn't go to the aid of Gondor until Saruman was taken care of and they didn't have another army ready to march on them from the other side.

As for the Elves at Rivendell and the Grey Havens, I can't say I really blame them, either. They don't really want another fight. And after thousands of years of fighting off and on, first Morgoth then Sauron, can you really say that you'd feel differently? Most of them were pretty much ready to leave M-E; they were just waiting for the right time to do it. Why get embroiled in another war? Especially with Men, who really don't seem to think to highly of them - mythical, sorcerous...

Nogrod · 05-15-2006, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farael

I did not mean for the elves to be called "cowards" but they sure are part of the "passive resistance" rather than the active one. Both kinds of resistance are important, someone has to be able to think for any active meassures to be effective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

I suspect the truth is that the Elves have cut themselves off for so long that they've lost touch with what's really gong on in the world. The world they knew has changed & they haven't kept up. They were always essentially a backward looking people. They chose to isolate themselves from all change & ended up being left behind.

So maybe the elves were the Europeans in contrast to the Americans today?

Sorry, but this just sounds like so much rhetoric from today's world politics... And surely, it's an arguable point, both in the ME and in the real world.

But I'm not sure, whether to call the elves "backward looking people" in the first instance. I would say, that they were folks that looked to another directions than men.

Lalwendë · 05-16-2006, 06:08 AM

We have to remember that there were two sorts of Elves, those descended from the Noldor/Eldar and those Elves who had never left Middle-earth in the first place. Those in the latter group were staying there anyway (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Legolas is a rare example of a Silvan Elf who leaves for Valinor?); it was the Eldar who were thinking about leaving.

It seems that both kindreds had started to become isolated, though seemingly for different reasons. The Eldar had maybe started to think of leaving Middle-earth in the hands of Men and so had begun to retreat, but I think the 'ordinary' Elves had become more reclusive out of necessity.

I wonder if this says anything about Elven attitudes in the different kindreds?

Why I wanted to see Elven deaths in LOTR? I simply think it would have underlined the essential tragedy of the idea of the 'long defeat', that evil always rises again, and the struggle against it is futile though necessary. To see an 'immortal' die perhaps underlines the idea. Maybe Elrond could have followed Gil-galad and died at Pelennor? Might have been interesting to show how each 'generation' of Elves took part in the struggle and suffered/was sacrificed for the hundreds of generations of mortals that would follow?

Rhod the Red · 05-16-2006, 07:13 AM

"the Elves have cut themselves off for so long that they've lost touch with what's really gong on in the world."

Huh? So they didn't know what was happening outside their own borders? No offence, but that view is very disproven by the content of The Lord of the Rings . The leading Elves are very informed, by magical and general scouting sources of the events of late, in Middle-earth and play their part(defensive) against the Dark Power of the East.

Being wary of strangers at your borders does not mean your people are ignorant of what's happening, much less maintaining their own traditions. Does rarely using Westron, the 'Common Speech', represent ignorance? No, just cultural necessity and the lack of linguistic applicability of the CS to Elvish society.

davem · 05-16-2006, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

"the Elves have cut themselves off for so long that they've lost touch with what's really going on in the world."

Huh? So they didn't know what was happening outside their own borders? No offence, but that view is very disproven by the content of The Lord of the Rings . The leading Elves are very informed, by magical and general scouting sources of the events of late, in Middle-earth and play their part(defensive) against the Dark Power of the East.

I was referring to their psychological state, not their level of intelligence. Tolkien is clear on this in a number of letters & comments, where he describes them as 'embalmers' & speaks of them as being essentially backward looking, & being 'pushed backwards' into the future. See my post here

05-15-2006, 03:57 PM	#1
Farael Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment. Posts: 1,538	Hmmm maybe I used too many strong words on my last post. I did not mean for the elves to be called "cowards" but they sure are part of the "passive resistance" rather than the active one. Both kinds of resistance are important, someone has to be able to think for any active meassures to be effective. Yet what I was trying to say is that the elves were knocked down and weren't really getting up again. As they had another way out (Valinor) they didn't need to get up, they could flee, and that's why we don't see them as active participants in battle and same reason why we don't see them die.. they keep themselves out of harm's way because they know that if they survive, sooner or later they can seek their way West. __________________ I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.

05-15-2006, 04:15 PM	#2
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	I suspect the truth is that the Elves have cut themselves off for so long that they've lost touch with what's really gong on in the world. The world they knew has changed & they haven't kept up. They were always essentially a backward looking people. They chose to isolate themselves from all change & ended up being left behind. The fact that Sauron was defeated with so little input from the Elves as a whole surely demonstrates how little they were needed by the end of the Third Age. They were lost in dreams of 'old, unhappy far off things, & battles long ago'. ('For God's sake, let us sit upon the ground And tell sad stories of the death of kings'). They were no longer capable of being & doing what you expect of them. I think they played the part they were capable of playing. They had lost heart & hope of any victory they would consider worthy of the name. If a whole race can suffer from clinical depression I think the Elves came pretty close to doing so. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

05-15-2006, 05:02 PM	#3
Firefoot Illusionary Holbytla Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 7,547	In addition to what davem said... I don't think it's completely fair to forget that Sauron did send three assaults against Lorien out of Dol Guldur, and there was also fighting on the part of the Mirkwood Elves on the same day as the second assault. It's not like they were sitting at home knitting socks. You can blame them for not leaving their land to fight with the Rohirrim and the Gondorians, but that's really not quite fair. The Dwarves and the Men of Dale didn't go either; they had to defend their own homes. And consider Theoden: he didn't go to the aid of Gondor until Saruman was taken care of and they didn't have another army ready to march on them from the other side. As for the Elves at Rivendell and the Grey Havens, I can't say I really blame them, either. They don't really want another fight. And after thousands of years of fighting off and on, first Morgoth then Sauron, can you really say that you'd feel differently? Most of them were pretty much ready to leave M-E; they were just waiting for the right time to do it. Why get embroiled in another war? Especially with Men, who really don't seem to think to highly of them - mythical, sorcerous...

05-16-2006, 06:08 AM	#5
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	We have to remember that there were two sorts of Elves, those descended from the Noldor/Eldar and those Elves who had never left Middle-earth in the first place. Those in the latter group were staying there anyway (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Legolas is a rare example of a Silvan Elf who leaves for Valinor?); it was the Eldar who were thinking about leaving. It seems that both kindreds had started to become isolated, though seemingly for different reasons. The Eldar had maybe started to think of leaving Middle-earth in the hands of Men and so had begun to retreat, but I think the 'ordinary' Elves had become more reclusive out of necessity. I wonder if this says anything about Elven attitudes in the different kindreds? Why I wanted to see Elven deaths in LOTR? I simply think it would have underlined the essential tragedy of the idea of the 'long defeat', that evil always rises again, and the struggle against it is futile though necessary. To see an 'immortal' die perhaps underlines the idea. Maybe Elrond could have followed Gil-galad and died at Pelennor? Might have been interesting to show how each 'generation' of Elves took part in the struggle and suffered/was sacrificed for the hundreds of generations of mortals that would follow? __________________ Gordon's alive!

05-16-2006, 07:13 AM	#6
Rhod the Red Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 257	"the Elves have cut themselves off for so long that they've lost touch with what's really gong on in the world." Huh? So they didn't know what was happening outside their own borders? No offence, but that view is very disproven by the content of The Lord of the Rings . The leading Elves are very informed, by magical and general scouting sources of the events of late, in Middle-earth and play their part(defensive) against the Dark Power of the East. Being wary of strangers at your borders does not mean your people are ignorant of what's happening, much less maintaining their own traditions. Does rarely using Westron, the 'Common Speech', represent ignorance? No, just cultural necessity and the lack of linguistic applicability of the CS to Elvish society. __________________ Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia