Gandalf a "steward?"

[davem]

We won't ever know. I don't see Boromir as being all that 'nice' - certainly the movie rewrote him as a flawed hero, as opposed to the proud, but often thuggish, warrior of the book. Which is not to say he didn't have some good in him. His final act was selfless & worthy of the respect Aragorn & the others show him (respect for his prowess in battle, not for his social skills or pleasant company btw). But this is one moment. He died heroically, but his concern all along was with Gondor. His repentance came with the realisation that he was dying. If he had succeeded in avoiding death I don't see any reason that he would have changed essentially. He wouldn't have turned into a Faramir.

The idea that he would have 'betrayed' his city, his people & most importantly his father by going off on a wild goose chase after a couple of Hobbits is something that is not in character for him - much though we all might like the 'Happily ever after-ness' of it. Boromir was 'lucky' - he achieved a heroic death & had time to 'confess his sins'. As B88 has so cogently argued, though, things had not come to the 'pinch'. Boromir, I think, would have sided with his father. Denethor would have determined whether Boromir accepted or rejected Aragorn. He wouldn't have chosen Aragorn over his father, if push came to shove.

[The Saucepan Man]

You are right. We will never know.

But I think you may be underestimating the effect that Boromir's failed attempt to seize the Ring, and subsequent realisation of his folly, had on him.

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

You are right. We will never know.

But I think you may be underestimating the effect that Boromir's failed attempt to seize the Ring, and subsequent realisation of his folly, had on him.

I don't see book Boromir doing what you suggest. Movie Boromir probably would. But they are different characters. Apart from anything else Boromir is a soldier & not to return to Minas Tirith would be tantamount to deserting his post in wartime. Supporting Aragorn over his father's rejection of him would be equivalent to treason as Denethor is not only his father but also his CiC.

Now, Faramir effectively did both those things, but Faramir is a different kind of man altogether.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by davem

I don't see book Boromir doing what you suggest. Movie Boromir probably would. But they are different characters. Apart from anything else Boromir is a soldier & not to return to Minas Tirith would be tantamount to deserting his post in wartime. Supporting Aragorn over his father's rejection of him would be equivalent to treason as Denethor is not only his father but also his CiC.

Now, Faramir effectively did both those things, but Faramir is a different kind of man altogether.

My mind's not made up either way- though since I lean Davem-wise in this matter, I guess I'm playing the Devil's Advocate here. Anyway, if Boromir is a soldier, then the Chain of Command should be taken into account. If Aragorn were to determine that following the Hobbits was the best course of honour, then if Boromir had accepted him as rightful king, then that's the way to go.

Denethor WAS Boromir's commander-in-chief. If he accepted Aragorn as rightful king- which we are given to understand he did- then Aragorn's right supercedes that of Denethor's.

Whether or not Boromir would consider Aragorn's decision as right, and if he thought it wrong and thus becoming a potential breeding ground for him rejecting Aragorn's claim, is another matter. As of Parth Galen, though, Boromir is shown to have accepted, as of then, Aragorn's claim, and thus Aragorn's decision would have outranked his preference... After all, is one deserting one's post if one is following one's commander?

Again, just playing the Devil's Advocate.

[davem]

Anyway, if Boromir is a soldier, then the Chain of Command should be taken into account. If Aragorn were to determine that following the Hobbits was the best course of honour, then if Boromir had accepted him as rightful king, then that's the way to go…

As of Parth Galen, though, Boromir is shown to have accepted, as of then, Aragorn's claim,

But had he 'accepted him as rightful king?' I don't see that from his words. Of course, he did obey Aragorn's orders to find & protect the Hobbits, but was he obeying his king, or merely the leader of the Company?

After all, is one deserting one's post if one is following one's commander?

Technically yes- if that 'commander' has not established his legal right to command or been accepted by the Government, Army & People.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

Of course, he did obey Aragorn's orders to find & protect the Hobbits, but was he obeying his king, or merely the leader of the Company?

Does it matter? The pertinent fact is that he obeyed those orders and agreed to protect the Hobbits. And, since the Hobbits were captured while under his willing protection, surely he would see it as his duty to aid in seeking to liberate them? He was a man of honour, was he not? I can't see him just abandoning his charges, particularly not after the realisation of his Ring-folly.

And yes, davem, I am talking about book Boromir.

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Does it matter? The pertinent fact is that he obeyed those orders and agreed to protect the Hobbits. And, since the Hobbits were captured while under his willing protection, surely he would see it as his duty to aid in seeking to liberate them? He was a man of honour, was he not? I can't see him just abandoning his charges, particularly not after the realisation of his Ring-folly.

It matters whether he was (in his own mind) obeying a Royal Command, or an order from someone in temporary authority of the Company of the Ring. What you seem to be leaving out of your calculations is that Boromir is the Captain General of the Armies of Minas Tirith & therefore the Second in Command of the Gondorian Army. He has been on a mission to Rivendell for his CiC, & his expressed intent has always been to return to his father to report what he has discovered & take up his military command again. As he has at no point specifically accepted Aragorn's claim to the kingship, I can't see that anything has happened to alter his perceved duty. There's that line in The Sil about 'those who would uphold authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. You seem to be basing your assessment of his actions/choices on his being a free agent - which he in no way is. Merry & Pippin were not his 'charges'. He was told to find & protect them in a particular set of circumstances. Of course, if Aragorn, Legolas & Gimli had not been able to go after them he would have been put in a difficult situation. Plus, you're assuming Aragorn would not have 'commanded' him to go home anyway - which is likely. Also, if he hadn't died we don't know how strong his 'repentance' would have been. Impending mortality is both a shock to the system & focusses the mind wonderfully. He may actually have gone after Frodo instead - perhaps not to try to take the Ring again, but to protect him.

Now, if the Orcs had grabbed M&P & run off I've no doubt that he would have run after them in the heat of the moment, so its possible he could have ended up following along with Aragorn & the others, but I don't think this is what you're arguing. You seem to be saying that in the position of the others he would have made a conscious decision to go after them. I just can't see him doing that at all. His first duty was to his people & as 'a man of honour I can't see him deserting his post. M&P are just not that important militarily - & that's how Boromir thinks.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by davem

Technically yes- if that 'commander' has not established his legal right to command or been accepted by the Government, Army & People.

Continuing from my previous Devil's Advocate line of thought: Aragorn was, as soon as he started heading to Gondor, the King, if as yet uncrowned. If Boromir accepted his claim as valid (and I would read it that way, even if you would not), then he has to take Aragorn as King right now. The Palantír, for example, responded to Aragorn as it's proper owner immediately, although he had not yet been acclaimed King, unfurled the Royal banner, or been crowned.

A king, if his claim is legitimate (and while Aragorn's claim was legally debatable, the Palantír issue should prove that it is correct) then he is King the INSTANT the previous king died. Now, in Aragorn's case, the last King of Gondor was Eärnur, and the last King of Arthedain was Arvedui- so it's not quite the same situation. But as soon as he revealed his lineage to Boromir in Rivendell, had Narsil reforged, and declared his intent to seek and aid Minas Tirith, he was declaring himself the rightful Heir- and with no King alive, the rightful heir IS the rightful king. To use a modern analogy, the instant Queen Elizabeth II passes away, Prince Charles will BE Charles III, King of Great Britain and Northern Island (and King of Canada, for that matter...).

[davem]

Well, Aragorn has a claim to the Kingship, but if no-one accepts him he isn't technically king. Where is it stated (or even implied) that Boromir has accepted Aragorn's kingship? He says 'Go to Minas Tirith and save my people!'. That's it. Now, of course, the guys about to croak, so he doesn't have time to go through an oath of fealty & all the rest of the rigmarole, so it could be taken as an acknowledgement of Aragorn's kingship. On the other hand, it could be taken as Boromir the Captain Genereal of Gondor giving an order to a subordinate. Having said that he does clearly believe that Aragorn has some chance of doing that.

My own feeling is that Boromir is merely acknowledging Aragorn's skill as a warrior, even his claim of descent from Isildur. But it need not imply anything more than that. Faramir, who knew his brother better than anyone (including his father) was not so sure of his brother's reaction. You might as well say every descendant of Isildur from Arvedui (the first claimant from the North Kingdom) was 'rightful king'. The fact is none of them was king. Aragorn could have wandered around Middle-earth claiming the kingship till he was blue in the face & maybe no-one would have to have taken a blind bit of notice of him.You ain't king till you're crowned in fact, whatever the genealogists may say.

The issue is whether a descendant of the Northern Kings has a right to the crown of the Southern Kingdom, & that is what's in dispute, it seems to me. If, on Queen Elizabeth's death the UK declares itself a Republic Charles will not be king. Aragorn's ancestors lost the kingship of the only realm they were kings of. They were never kings of Gondor at all.

All of which is beside the point. The question at issue is whether Boromir accepted not only Aragorn's claim, but also his right. And even if he accepted both he could still have ignored them.

I just don't see Boromir leaving his city, realm & people to their fate while he chases off after a couple of Hobbits. Neither do I see him just accepting Aragorn's claim if he got to MT if his father was alive to reject it. That Boromir would defy his father's will is out of character. Do you really see Boromir accepting the role of Steward to Aragorn as Faramir did?

Perhaps he would have. But I have to say that I can't see any single point at which Boromir says 'Right, I acknowledge here & now that you are the king.' He obeys Aragorn's command but at that point he is shocked by his own behaviour & racked with guilt. He charges off unthinkingly & runs smack into a horde of Uruks, lays into them & gets shot down. Emotional roller-coaster or what. As he's dying Aragorn comes along & Boromir begs him to do what he will no longer be capable of doing himself - to 'save his people'. Where in all that you find an acknowledgement of Aragorn's kingship I don't know. Boromir is hardly the most rational & constant of men. He could acknowledge Aragorn's claim & then go back on it when it came to the pinch.

Boromir certainly saw in Aragorn a fellow warrior with a high pedigree, but that's very different from acknowledging him king of Gondor.

The Palantír, for example, responded to Aragorn as it's proper owner immediately, although he had not yet been acclaimed King, unfurled the Royal banner, or been crowned.

..............

King Arthur: I am your king.
Woman: Well I didn't vote for you.
King Arthur: You don't vote for kings.
Woman: Well how'd you become king then?
[Angelic music plays... ]
King Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king.
Dennis: [interrupting] Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony...

you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you....

...if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away.