Gandalf a "steward?"

[narfforc]

You are probably right in saying that Denethor would have caused some problems had he lived, however if Boromir had lived and remained true, he would surely have seen Aragorn in a more positive manner, I even believe he would have bent his knee before the whole world and accepted Aragorn as his King. Denethors madness would have been his downfall, in the same way Hitler imploded. Mad men cannot think, their followers soon come to hate them, ruin and destruction are the battle honours of deranged leaders. In saying all this, I believe what you say to be true, for Politicians, Leaders and Councils of Leaders are corrupted by power and have only one true agenda, that is to hold on, clinging as hard as they can to power, at all costs, spending the lives of their followers until utter ruin.

[davem]

Originally Posted by narfforc

You are probably right in saying that Denethor would have caused some problems had he lived, however if Boromir had lived and remained true, he would surely have seen Aragorn in a more positive manner, I even believe he would have bent his knee before the whole world and accepted Aragorn as his King. .

Possibly. If we look at his death scene though its open to interpretation:

Aragorn knelt beside him. Boromir opened his eyes and strove to speak. At last slow words came. "I tried to take the Ring from Frodo," he said. "I am sorry. I have paid." His glance strayed to his fallen enemies; twenty at least lay there. "They have gone: the Halflings: the Orcs have taken them. I think they are not dead. Orcs bound them." He paused and his eyes closed wearily. After a moment he spoke again. "Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed." 'No!" said Aragorn, taking his hand and kissing his brow. 'You have conquered. Few have gained such a victory. Be at peace! Minas Tirith shall not fall!" Boromir smiled. "Which way did they go? Was Frodo there?" said Aragorn. But Boromir did not speak again.

Unlike in the movie there is no mention of 'our people' by either Aragorn or Boromir. Boromir still claims the people of Minas Tirith as 'my people'. I just don't know. Boromir was wayward to say the least. He would have followed Aragorn to war against Sauron, maybe, but afterwards? He could have gone either way, imo, so I can't argue with you, but I'm not as certain of him as you are - maybe that's the old cynic in me

[narfforc]

Boromir had not really seen the greatness of the warrior/leadership of Aragorn, how would he have reacted to the scene at The Stone of Erech for instance, surely he would have seen the power of The Heritage of The Heir of Elendils son Isildur, the rights of The House of Hurin would pale into insignificent beside The man within whose veins flowed the blood of Melian and Luthien.

[davem]

Originally Posted by narfforc

Boromir had not really seen the greatness of the warrior/leadership of Aragorn, how would he have reacted to the scene at The Stone of Erech for instance, surely he would have seen the power of The Heritage of The Heir of Elendils son Isildur, the rights of The House of Hurin would pale into insignificent beside The man within whose veins flowed the blood of Melian and Luthien.

Assuming he would have gone on with Aragorn & not just returned to Minas Tirith.....

[narfforc]

We can also assume that Denethor would have caused trouble had he not been roasted......

[davem]

Originally Posted by narfforc

We can also assume that Denethor would have caused trouble had he not been roasted......

I think he would have - to the extent that he could. With Boromir I think his dedication to Gondor would have over-ridden his (possibly) developing loyalty to Aragorn. Even at his death Boromir's concern was with his people. He may have seen Aragorn as the means of survival of his folk, but I don't think he saw Aragorn as more important than them. I think if he had survived he would have gone straight home - which was his stated aim all along. Of course, Boromir is single-minded - he can only hold one idea in his mind at a time. His obsession with Gondor's survival is what drives him to desire the Ring. He could well have transferred that focus from the Ring to Aragorn once the Ring had passed out of his reach (& we're assuming also that he wouldn't have sought to follow Frodo - which could have brought him into conflict with Aragorn actually), but I think Gondor would always have been uppermost in his thought. If Aragorn had decided to follow the Orcs I think its more than likely he would have seen that as a betrayal of his duty to Gondor & that Boromir would have gone back to Minas Tirith alone, perhaps feeling betrayed by Aragorn.

Boromir has inherited his father's obsessive love of Gondor & I think that explains a lot about him & the choices he made, & would have made.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

If Aragorn had decided to follow the Orcs I think its more than likely he would have seen that as a betrayal of his duty to Gondor & that Boromir would have gone back to Minas Tirith alone, perhaps feeling betrayed by Aragorn.

Boromir gave his life in an effort to save Merry and Pippin from capture. Had he survived that encounter, but nevertheless failed to prevent their capture, I suspect that he would have felt duty-bound to help rescue them. In such circusmtances, it is, I think, quite likely that his respect for Aragorn, and therefore the chances of him accepting Aragron as the returning King, would have increased.

[Boromir88]

davem, oh I agree, if Aragorn had really just pulled an Arvedui and claimed Kingship, he may very well have been laughed out of the Court. He had to prove himself first and after Pelennor and the Black Gates, I think he gets the support he needs. Even after this, I think Aragorn understood how to play politics:

Faramir met Aragorn in the midst of those there assembled, and he knelt, and said: 'The last Steward of Gondor begs leave to surrender his office.' And he held out a white rod; but Aragorn took the rod and gave it back, saying: 'That office is not ended, and it shall be thine and thy heirs' as long as my line shall last. Do now thy office!'~The Steward and the King

This is Aragorn's first day as King, he really isn't well known to the people yet. It may not have been a wise mood to suddenly change a system that had been in place for quite some time. This shows Aragorn understanding realpolitik and why he was a "good King."

Boromir's situation of accepting Aragorn is a toss-up I think. Early in his writings, Tolkien plays with an idea of Aragorn and Boromir reaching Minas Tirith, and Boromir trying to kick Aragorn out of power:

Boromir and Aragorn (who notes a change in Boromir - who is keen to break off the chase and go home) reach Minas Tirith, which is besieged by Sauron except at back? Siege is briefly told from point of view of watchers on battlements. Evil has now hold of Boromir who is jealous of Aragorn. The Lord of Minas Tirith is slain (9) and they choose Aragorn. Boromir deserts and sneaks off to Saruman, to get his help in becoming Lord of Minas Tirith.~The Story Foreseen from Moria, The Treason of Isengard

Also as Faramir tells us in The Window on the West:

"It does," said Frodo. "Yet always he treated Aragorn with honor."
"I doubt it not," said Faramir. "If he were satisfied with Aragorn's claim, as you say, he would greatly reverence him. But the pinch had not yet come. They had not yet reached Minas Tirith or become rivals in war."

Throughout the journey (despite a rocky start) Boromir trusts Aragorn and seems satisfied with his claim. When he's about to die, he tells Aragorn to save his people, whether this was because he knew he was going to die and he thought Aragorn could be the only person now to save Gondor? Who knows, but we are left with doubt as to whether, if Boromir had lived, would he have resisted Aragorn's claim, would they have become rivals? And even more interesting, if so, what about Faramir? Anyway, just some question to stir some minds.