The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-10-2006, 11:07 AM   #1
Tuor of Gondolin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles)
Posts: 1,548
Tuor of Gondolin has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

I tend to agree with above arguments for heading East
or West, as opposed to South (although if the
Redhorn gate was open it would also be a good option).
They could have headed east past the Beornings and
then gone down the River Running, getting to the area
of the Sea of Rhun as a jumping off place for a dash to the
south side of the Ered Lithui (hey, beats passing by Shelob
and/or Minas Morgul as an entrance area!

Alternately, despite Gandalf's worries, immediately
after the Council of Rivendell head west to the Grey Havens,
get Cirdan to send a small fleet, 2-3 boats at most, south
of the Angren (any further by sea and there's corsair problems),
and then go by land east to Lebennin and South Ithilien.
Then either see the giant spider or head east around the
mountains and so into south Mordor.
Sea travel by elf sailors (hugging the coast) would be much
quicker, and being near shore they could evade any enemy ships
or stormy weather.

There are problems with any route. Difficulties with the sea
route include evading armies moving north, the length of the
trip around mountains (unless JRRT invents another pass- or
moves Shelob around ) and being stopped by Denethor.
__________________
Aure Entuluva!

Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin; 05-10-2006 at 11:13 AM.
Tuor of Gondolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2006, 11:24 AM   #2
tom bombariffic
Wight
 
tom bombariffic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: In the house of Tom Bombariffic
Posts: 196
tom bombariffic has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
I'm reading
Quote:
The Lord of the Rings
again
I've heard it's very good.

bombariffic
__________________
The 'hum' generated by an electric car is not in fact the noise of the engine, but that of the driver's self-righteousness oscillating at a high frequency.
tom bombariffic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2006, 02:02 PM   #3
Legolas
A Northern Soul
 
Legolas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
Legolas has just left Hobbiton.
Speed was important; safety was an issue whereever they went.

The snow that fell on Caradhras stopped the Fellowship in their tracks; it would've only been worse so far north (where Bilbo's High Pass lies).

Quote:
When they returned to the Company Gandalf spoke, and then he knew that it had been decided to face the weather and the high pass. He was relieved. He could not guess what was the other dark and secret way, but the very mention of it had seemed to fill Aragorn with dismay, and Frodo was glad that it had been abandoned.
'From signs that we have seen lately,' said Gandalf, 'I fear that the Redhorn Gate may be watched; and also I have doubts of the weather that is coming up behind. Snow may come. We must go with all the speed that we can. Even so it will take us more than two marches before we reach the top of the pass. Dark will come early this evening. We must leave as soon as you can get ready.'
__________________
...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.
Legolas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2006, 03:31 AM   #4
Rhod the Red
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Rhod the Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 257
Rhod the Red is still gossiping in the Green Dragon.
The snow storm was at Redhorn, not East of Rivendell. No offence, but don't insert stuff into the story. Gandalf was referring to the Redhorn Pass then, as is clear as the colour of the letters.
__________________
Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari
Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present
Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia

Last edited by Rhod the Red; 05-12-2006 at 03:39 AM.
Rhod the Red is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2006, 09:57 AM   #5
Legolas
A Northern Soul
 
Legolas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
Legolas has just left Hobbiton.
No offense, but once again, please read over what I said again. I didn't say he wasn't. Who inserted things into the story? I was saying there was a risk of harsh weather at Redhorn, which was unusual that far south.

Why would they risk harsher weather by going further north where it was more common, and take the longer route in face of impending doom? It is simply irrational to expect that they would've taken the High Pass. Gandalf never even considers that High Pass an option because of these things. I do not think he is an idiot!

You might also note that they point out that it wasn't simply natural weather acting.

Quote:
'That I feared it too,' Aragorn answered, 'but less than other things. I knew the risk of snow, though it seldom falls heavily so far south, save high up in the mountains. But we are not high yet; we are still far down, where the paths are usually open all the winter.'
'I wonder if this is a contrivance of the Enemy,' said Boromir. 'They say in my land that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow that stand upon the borders of Mordor. He has strange powers and many allies.'
'His arm has grown long indeed,' said Gimli, 'if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here three hundred leagues away.'
'His arm has grown long,' said Gandalf.
__________________
...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.
Legolas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2006, 10:20 AM   #6
Tuor of Gondolin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles)
Posts: 1,548
Tuor of Gondolin has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Why would they risk harsher weather by going further north where it was more common, and take the longer route in face of impending doom?
To interject on this point, the northern route (east to River
Running) while longer and perhaps minimally colder (Caradhras
was a tall peak so even its regular winter passages might well
be as difficult as the High Pass). Also, the route east
was generally secured by the Beornings, plus they could approach
Mordor from a presumably unexpected point (The Sea of Rhun)
as opposed to knocking on the front door (rather unwise).
__________________
Aure Entuluva!
Tuor of Gondolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2006, 02:05 PM   #7
Formendacil
Dead Serious
 
Formendacil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers.
Posts: 3,328
Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Send a message via AIM to Formendacil Send a message via MSN to Formendacil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin
To interject on this point, the northern route (east to River
Running) while longer and perhaps minimally colder (Caradhras
was a tall peak so even its regular winter passages might well
be as difficult as the High Pass). Also, the route east
was generally secured by the Beornings, plus they could approach
Mordor from a presumably unexpected point (The Sea of Rhun)
as opposed to knocking on the front door (rather unwise).
I fear that the Sea of Rhûn route would have been a poor idea for the same reasons as the Drûwaith Iaur route: too long. The Fellowship had to get to Mordor ere the West was lost.

Also, the Beornings may have held the upper Vale of Anduin, but to get at Mordor's "back door", the Fellowship would have had to pass through or around Mirkwood (which in addition to being the home of Dol Guldur was also a warzone). Then they would have had to strike out across Rhovannion, which was probably swarming with Easterlings and Orks, and then into Rhûn proper, which was not only full of Easterlings, but a part of Sauron's empire.

The route that Frodo ended up taking may have been dangerous, but I think an alternative route in Mordor- which would have been too long anyway- would have been far more perillous.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
Formendacil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2006, 10:27 AM   #8
tom bombariffic
Wight
 
tom bombariffic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: In the house of Tom Bombariffic
Posts: 196
tom bombariffic has just left Hobbiton.
Boots

A good point, Moria was the logical, and safest choice.

However, Tolkien is also careful to emphasize their reluctance right to the end, and they decide to sleep on it, still undecided. In the end, the final decision to go to moria is made of pure necessity, whether they would have chosen to go there or not:

Quote:
Suddenly Aragorn leapt to his feet. "How the wind howls!" he cried. "It is howling with wolf-voices.The wargs have come west of the mountains!"

"Need we wait until morning then?" said Gandalf. "It is as I said. The hunt is up! Even if we live to see the dawn, who now will wish to journey south by night with the wild wolves on his trail?"

"How far is Moria?" asked Boromir.
This is very clearly a last option, and their delaying of their decision until their hand is forced shows that it was really made out of necessity...whether or not they would have decided to go despite the wolves is another question.

bombariffic
__________________
The 'hum' generated by an electric car is not in fact the noise of the engine, but that of the driver's self-righteousness oscillating at a high frequency.
tom bombariffic is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:09 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.