The Ultimate Discourse About Gildor - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Rhod the Red · 05-08-2006, 08:19 AM

"Elves do have their own affairs and worries" So did Hobbits, but did that stop them from trading with outsiders?

Do the Elves refrain from talking to Frodo, Sam and Pippin? No. The particular 'Wandering Companies' were just wandering as far as we know, certainly according to the name.

"why would he have been ready to escort Frodo on a journey that'd take weeks?" He was ready, but wanted to travel somewhere else. Who knows where? But they were travellers themselves, done plenty already no doubt and it wouldn't have been much trouble for them personally.

"Even if Gildor would have thought it good idea to escort Frodo, his companions maybe wouldn't." So? He was the leader of the Company, he could easilly have ordered them to follow. If they disobeyed, he could have abandoned the WC to accompany Frodo.

"Maybe the Elves were afraid also, and didn't want to set against the Nazgûl" I'm sure they were afraid, but so were Frodo, Sam and Pippin. Did that stop them from trying to jouirney to Rivendell? No, they just travelled on.

"The Elves were no free escort or guard service" Then what was Glorifindel doing? While he was ordered by Elrond to do so, does that mean Gildor shouldn't have because he wasn't? Not in my view.

"the Elves didn't know about the Ring and so didn't understand the whole importance of the matter." They didn't need to, Frodo barely knew anything, most of the story was kept secret by the White Council. If you came across others fleeing to a friend's house, surely it is logical to help them. Friends help eachother, period.

Thinlómien · 05-08-2006, 08:35 AM

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They didn't need to, Frodo barely knew anything, most of the story was kept secret by the White Council. If you came across others fleeing to a friend's house, surely it is logical to help them. Friends help eachother, period.

I think you hit the point with this, though not for your own argument's good. The Elves weren't Frodo&Co's friends. They were on the same side and helped them, but that doesn't make them their friends.

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So? He was the leader of the Company, he could easilly have ordered them to follow.

*khrm* I don't believe he was a guy of that type.

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If they disobeyed, he could have abandoned the WC to accompany Frodo.

WC? Water closet?

Care to elaborate?

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I'm sure they were afraid, but so were Frodo, Sam and Pippin. Did that stop them from trying to jouirney to Rivendell? No, they just travelled on.

I think you miss the point. Frodo, Sam and Pippin knew what they were endangering themselves for. The Elves wouldn't have. A few people are willing to put their lives at stake without asking why.

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So did Hobbits, but did that stop them from trading with outsiders?

Trading is a different thing from mixing up in their businesses. The Elves showed the hobbits hospitality and respect that could be equal with hobbits' trading. Anyway, I hope I don't need to quote all the Elves in LotR who say that Elves take no interest in mortals...

Rhod the Red · 05-08-2006, 09:43 AM

Gildor and his Wandering Company(WC) could havehelped, it was not out of their way. But they chose not to, almost to their peril!

William Cloud Hicklin · 12-08-2007, 01:59 PM

Resurrected as per related thread.

Inglorion *could* mean 'son of Inglor (Felagund);' but it doesn't have to. As pointed out above, it's a regular genitive formation; or he could be a 'son' in the clan-sense, just like the Rohirrim were all considered 'Eorlingas' (which has a similar meaning, 'Sons of Eorl.'). So it could just as well mean that Gildor was simply a member or descendant of the 'Finrodrim,' the people of Nargothrond. Indeed the notion that he was Felagund's son would almost have to be definitively ruled out, because if he were, he would be High King of the Noldor, and indeed (by the latest genealogy) a superior claimant to Gil-galad!

Back when this thread was last active, Hammond & Scull's Reader's Companion was not out: in notes excerpted there, it is made clear that a) Gildor's company indeed came from Rivendell, and b) they were actually on their way back there, having made a visit to Emyn Beraid to look in the Palantir. But of course (b) could not possibly have been in Tolkien's mind when he wrote the chapter.

Unfortunately, nothing I'm aware of indicates whether Gildor was born in Aman or Middle-earth.

Glorfindel: a vassal and perhaps kinsman of Turgon and the House of Fingolfin, not Finarfin.

Weapons: Not necessary. The Ringwraiths (aside from the Captain) were not (now) warriors; and they were blinded, confused, and frightened by the aura of High Elves, which also apparently masked the 'Ring-scent.'

Galin · 12-08-2007, 05:38 PM

I think Inglorion means 'son, or descendant of Inglor'.

The genitive marker (in Quenya) is not -ion but -o and plural -on (as Silmarilli-on, Istari-on).

Here is must be a patronymic I think (-ion is a patronymic in both Quenya and Sindarin).

Nerwen · 12-08-2007, 09:55 PM

Yes, I think you're right, Galin.

In case people don't get that last post: the "-ion" ending of a word like "Istarion" is made up of -i (nominative plural) + -on (genitive plural).

Since there was only one Inglor, "Inglorion" must be "Inglor" + -ion (patronymic).

So we have a problem.

Perhaps Gildor was illegitimate?

William Cloud Hicklin · 12-08-2007, 11:04 PM

Not necessarily: as I said, it could have a figurative tribal sense like OE -lingas.

I can't imagine that Tolkien really meant to have a Noldorin royal pop up in the Woody End, and then make no more mention of him! In which case the name must have some alternate significance than biological son of Felagund.

05-08-2006, 08:19 AM	#1
Rhod the Red Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 257	"Elves do have their own affairs and worries" So did Hobbits, but did that stop them from trading with outsiders? Do the Elves refrain from talking to Frodo, Sam and Pippin? No. The particular 'Wandering Companies' were just wandering as far as we know, certainly according to the name. "why would he have been ready to escort Frodo on a journey that'd take weeks?" He was ready, but wanted to travel somewhere else. Who knows where? But they were travellers themselves, done plenty already no doubt and it wouldn't have been much trouble for them personally. "Even if Gildor would have thought it good idea to escort Frodo, his companions maybe wouldn't." So? He was the leader of the Company, he could easilly have ordered them to follow. If they disobeyed, he could have abandoned the WC to accompany Frodo. "Maybe the Elves were afraid also, and didn't want to set against the Nazgûl" I'm sure they were afraid, but so were Frodo, Sam and Pippin. Did that stop them from trying to jouirney to Rivendell? No, they just travelled on. "The Elves were no free escort or guard service" Then what was Glorifindel doing? While he was ordered by Elrond to do so, does that mean Gildor shouldn't have because he wasn't? Not in my view. "the Elves didn't know about the Ring and so didn't understand the whole importance of the matter." They didn't need to, Frodo barely knew anything, most of the story was kept secret by the White Council. If you came across others fleeing to a friend's house, surely it is logical to help them. Friends help eachother, period. __________________ Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia

05-08-2006, 09:43 AM	#3
Rhod the Red Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 257	Gildor and his Wandering Company(WC) could havehelped, it was not out of their way. But they chose not to, almost to their peril! __________________ Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia

12-08-2007, 01:59 PM	#4
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Resurrected as per related thread. Inglorion could mean 'son of Inglor (Felagund);' but it doesn't have to. As pointed out above, it's a regular genitive formation; or he could be a 'son' in the clan-sense, just like the Rohirrim were all considered 'Eorlingas' (which has a similar meaning, 'Sons of Eorl.'). So it could just as well mean that Gildor was simply a member or descendant of the 'Finrodrim,' the people of Nargothrond. Indeed the notion that he was Felagund's son would almost have to be definitively ruled out, because if he were, he would be High King of the Noldor, and indeed (by the latest genealogy) a superior claimant to Gil-galad! Back when this thread was last active, Hammond & Scull's Reader's Companion was not out: in notes excerpted there, it is made clear that a) Gildor's company indeed came from Rivendell, and b) they were actually on their way back there, having made a visit to Emyn Beraid to look in the Palantir. But of course (b) could not possibly have been in Tolkien's mind when he wrote the chapter. Unfortunately, nothing I'm aware of indicates whether Gildor was born in Aman or Middle-earth. Glorfindel: a vassal and perhaps kinsman of Turgon and the House of Fingolfin, not Finarfin. Weapons: Not necessary. The Ringwraiths (aside from the Captain) were not (now) warriors; and they were blinded, confused, and frightened by the aura of High Elves, which also apparently masked the 'Ring-scent.' __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

12-08-2007, 11:04 PM	#7
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Not necessarily: as I said, it could have a figurative tribal sense like OE -lingas. I can't imagine that Tolkien really meant to have a Noldorin royal pop up in the Woody End, and then make no more mention of him! In which case the name must have some alternate significance than biological son of Felagund. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

12-08-2007, 05:38 PM	#5
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	I think Inglorion means 'son, or descendant of Inglor'. The genitive marker (in Quenya) is not -ion but -o and plural -on (as Silmarilli-on, Istari-on). Here is must be a patronymic I think (-ion is a patronymic in both Quenya and Sindarin).

12-08-2007, 09:55 PM	#6
Nerwen Wisest of the Noldor Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ Posts: 6,694	Yes, I think you're right, Galin. In case people don't get that last post: the "-ion" ending of a word like "Istarion" is made up of -i (nominative plural) + -on (genitive plural). Since there was only one Inglor, "Inglorion" must be "Inglor" + -ion (patronymic). So we have a problem. Perhaps Gildor was illegitimate?