The Ring of Saruman? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Rhod the Red · 05-08-2006, 06:53 AM

I doubt it. I think it gave him the ability to produce orcs, etc.

narfforc · 05-08-2006, 08:27 AM

Gandalf goes to great length to warn others of the power of Sarumans voice and deceptive arts, and not for nothing. When Gandalf asks Treebeard upon his return to Orthanc, about the whereabouts of Saruman and being told he was gone, Gandalf has this to say:

'but this snake had still one tooth left, I think. He had the poison of his voice.....

The voice was given weight by the power within the Istari Saruman, that power should have been nullified when Gandalf broke his staff, however if a remnant of that power resided in his ring, which we are told nothing of after The Council of Elrond, then he may well of had one tooth left. Now add this to the debate:

At the doors of Bag End Frodo says: 'Do not believe him! He has lost all power, save his voice that can still daunt you and decieve you, if you let it.

Frodo is saying that the only thing of power that Saruman has left is his voice.

The only thing we know of Orc production is what Tolkien tells us: ' they had life and multiplied after the manner of The Children of Iluvatar', I don't think anything is mentioned about slimy production pits as in the films or in Computer Games. The inter-breeding of the Uruk-hai would probably be no different than producing a mule from two different equine species, not a difficult thing to do without a Ring of Power. Even breeding between the races wasn't difficult, we have lots of Peredhil to prove that.

Rhod the Red · 05-08-2006, 09:24 AM

"we have lots of Peredhil to prove that." what's your reference for that? I've never heard of it.

narfforc · 05-08-2006, 09:35 AM

The Offspring of Man and Elf (The Peredhil/Half-elven). If the Atani and Quendi can mate in the normal way, then so can Man and Orc, there is no need for large green pools of slime.

One is singular, a couple are a few, maybe instead of lots I should have said several:

1 Dior
2 Elured
3 Elurin
4 Elwing
5 Earendil
6 Elros
7 Elrond.

This of course does not include the Nimrodel incident, or Eldarion

**The Saucepan Man** · 05-08-2006, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

... what's your reference for that?

In return, it is only fair that you provide your reference for the contention that Saruman "produced" Orcs.

davem · 05-08-2006, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

In return, it is only fair that you provide your reference for the contention that Saruman "produced" Orcs.

Quote:

"But these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred, they will not quail at the sun," said Gamling. 'And neither will the wild men of the hills. Do you not hear their voices?" (Helm's Deep)

is the closest I can come to a reference that Saruman 'produced' Orcs. Actually, it doesn't say he 'produced' Orcs at all, merely that he indulged in a bit of genetic engineering.

Unless I've missed something

narfforc · 05-08-2006, 01:47 PM

Those words are known to me, however I still do not like the word produce. My sister breeds rabbits, she is not a stage magician who produces them from a hat. Only Iluvatar can create life, all else is done the usual way. No matter how unsavoury it is to think of it, the simple and easy way to this is with captured females of the species Man. Tolkien does not talk about Saruman or Sauron having Bio-labs And Genetic Engineering Plants, there is no conveyor belt production line here, all you need is the first batch of inter-bred species then you let them get on with what comes naturally. Tolkien knew from history that races mingled in conquered realms, that's why we talk about Romano-celts and such, how many people in England can stand up and say they are truly an original stock Briton.

Formendacil · 05-08-2006, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

In return, it is only fair that you provide your reference for the contention that Saruman "produced" Orcs.

Saucey, you have just given me a horrific mental image that I shall likely never shake, and shall have to revile for the rest of my natural life...

After all, men and elves can interbreed, right? So whether orks come from Elves or Men (as Tolkien later theorized they might have) they can interbreed with Men or Elves... and the Istari were sent to Middle-Earth in the form of Men- fully functional, we are made to assume. Therefore, when you say that Saruman "produced" the Orks, I am for some reason left with the mental image of Saruman SIRING the orks.

Ew! Ew! EWW!!

Slightly offtopic, yes... but Ew! And if I have to suffer it, so do you!

Lalwendë · 05-08-2006, 04:19 PM

I think Rings had little to do with Saruman's breeding programme; he would have done this anyway. I do agree he probably took human women and male Orcs and had them breed; possibly women of the Dunlendings or Rohirrim women captured in the Westfold? I am also sure that Orcs and Men could breed; taking the possibility that Orcs are corrupted Elves, we know Men and Elves could breed, so why not Orcs, if they are/have been Elves?

I also think that Orcs would relish the possibility of breeding with women, distasteful as it sounds. Tolkien took great care not to mention what happened to Celebrian when she was waylaid, but the possibility of something incredibly horrible happening does exist. The absence of an explanation can often speak volumes.

Anyway, about that pesky Ring again. I have in my mind a picture of that ring. I think it may be constructed of crystal, may include some kind of Prism. This would make it a genuine ring of many colours for a wizard of many colours. It could have been an inspiration for, or perhaps inspired by, Saruman's Light Breaking. It may even have been a tool for what he was trying to attempt in breaking up that Light/Divinity to see what it was made of.

I also noted how Gandalf seems almost to dismiss this ring of Saruman's as a mere trinket. I wonder whether Gandalf really thinks that? Was he trying not to give Saruman and his craft any credence? One of the ways the true Rings of Power seem to work is by reputation; even just to hear of one evokes fear and passion. Maybe Gandalf feared the Ring of Saruman taking on this kind of life, the same type of reputation as the One Ring?

05-08-2006, 06:53 AM	#1
Rhod the Red Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 257	I doubt it. I think it gave him the ability to produce orcs, etc. __________________ Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia

05-08-2006, 08:27 AM	#2
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	The Voice of Saruman Gandalf goes to great length to warn others of the power of Sarumans voice and deceptive arts, and not for nothing. When Gandalf asks Treebeard upon his return to Orthanc, about the whereabouts of Saruman and being told he was gone, Gandalf has this to say: 'but this snake had still one tooth left, I think. He had the poison of his voice..... The voice was given weight by the power within the Istari Saruman, that power should have been nullified when Gandalf broke his staff, however if a remnant of that power resided in his ring, which we are told nothing of after The Council of Elrond, then he may well of had one tooth left. Now add this to the debate: At the doors of Bag End Frodo says: 'Do not believe him! He has lost all power, save his voice that can still daunt you and decieve you, if you let it. Frodo is saying that the only thing of power that Saruman has left is his voice. The only thing we know of Orc production is what Tolkien tells us: ' they had life and multiplied after the manner of The Children of Iluvatar', I don't think anything is mentioned about slimy production pits as in the films or in Computer Games. The inter-breeding of the Uruk-hai would probably be no different than producing a mule from two different equine species, not a difficult thing to do without a Ring of Power. Even breeding between the races wasn't difficult, we have lots of Peredhil to prove that. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 05-08-2006 at 08:33 AM.

05-08-2006, 09:24 AM	#3
Rhod the Red Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 257	"we have lots of Peredhil to prove that." what's your reference for that? I've never heard of it. __________________ Head of the Fifth Order of the Istari Tenure: Fourth Age(Year 1) - Present Currently operating in Melbourne, Australia

05-08-2006, 09:35 AM	#4
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	The Offspring of Man and Elf (The Peredhil/Half-elven). If the Atani and Quendi can mate in the normal way, then so can Man and Orc, there is no need for large green pools of slime. One is singular, a couple are a few, maybe instead of lots I should have said several: 1 Dior 2 Elured 3 Elurin 4 Elwing 5 Earendil 6 Elros 7 Elrond. This of course does not include the Nimrodel incident, or Eldarion __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 05-08-2006 at 01:12 PM.

05-08-2006, 01:47 PM	#7
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	Abracadabra Those words are known to me, however I still do not like the word produce. My sister breeds rabbits, she is not a stage magician who produces them from a hat. Only Iluvatar can create life, all else is done the usual way. No matter how unsavoury it is to think of it, the simple and easy way to this is with captured females of the species Man. Tolkien does not talk about Saruman or Sauron having Bio-labs And Genetic Engineering Plants, there is no conveyor belt production line here, all you need is the first batch of inter-bred species then you let them get on with what comes naturally. Tolkien knew from history that races mingled in conquered realms, that's why we talk about Romano-celts and such, how many people in England can stand up and say they are truly an original stock Briton. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.

05-08-2006, 04:19 PM	#9
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	I think Rings had little to do with Saruman's breeding programme; he would have done this anyway. I do agree he probably took human women and male Orcs and had them breed; possibly women of the Dunlendings or Rohirrim women captured in the Westfold? I am also sure that Orcs and Men could breed; taking the possibility that Orcs are corrupted Elves, we know Men and Elves could breed, so why not Orcs, if they are/have been Elves? I also think that Orcs would relish the possibility of breeding with women, distasteful as it sounds. Tolkien took great care not to mention what happened to Celebrian when she was waylaid, but the possibility of something incredibly horrible happening does exist. The absence of an explanation can often speak volumes. Anyway, about that pesky Ring again. I have in my mind a picture of that ring. I think it may be constructed of crystal, may include some kind of Prism. This would make it a genuine ring of many colours for a wizard of many colours. It could have been an inspiration for, or perhaps inspired by, Saruman's Light Breaking. It may even have been a tool for what he was trying to attempt in breaking up that Light/Divinity to see what it was made of. I also noted how Gandalf seems almost to dismiss this ring of Saruman's as a mere trinket. I wonder whether Gandalf really thinks that? Was he trying not to give Saruman and his craft any credence? One of the ways the true Rings of Power seem to work is by reputation; even just to hear of one evokes fear and passion. Maybe Gandalf feared the Ring of Saruman taking on this kind of life, the same type of reputation as the One Ring? __________________ Gordon's alive!