Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Isle of Werewolves)

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Roa

the EW can de-gift a gifted, and the GW can unwolf a wolf, so even with a tally saying, "Oh, you only have a seer and a hunter, and this many wolves" we still wouldn't know if the villager who died was the protector, a wolf, or just a hapless innocent.

Under normal circumstances we will always be able to tell by virtue of the tally if a gifted was slain or de-gifted. If the number of wolves goes up, the gifted was slain since the EW's nightly curse was obviously used to create another wolf. If the number of wolves remains the same, then the EW's nightly curse was used to de-gift. The only exception is if the nightly curse found the GW, which is not a likely option, and can only happen a maximum of once in a game.

As far as wolves killing wolves, I'm discounting that because it doesn't seem too likely that the EW would be a fan of that.

Let's look at a complex situation. If the GW de-wolves, the EW de-gifts, and the wolves kill an ordo all on one night, the number of Gifteds would decrease by one, Wolves would decrease by one, Wizards would stay at two, and Ordinaries would increase by one.

The village could quickly deduce that only one kill was made. Only the wolves, the hunter, or a meeting of wizards can kill. If it was a meeting of wizards that killed, then how could the number of both gifteds and wolves be reduced? In order for the Hunter to kill, he must be killed, but that would result in two deaths. The village would quickly work out that the death must have resulted from the wolves, and that the loss of the wolf and the gifted was due to the Wizard's nightly activities, meaning that it was an ordo who was killed and not a gifted.

As you can see, in most situations it is possible to figure out from the tally if a gifted was killed or de-gifted.

Now, once there are multiple killings at night, then the situation is more complicated, because there is no way of knowing which of the three individuals killed was the gifted (though as always we will be able to tell if the reduction in the number of gifteds was due to the EW or the wolves, which is nice).

And, of course, the GW can help clear up any confusion if he/she chooses by moving into the open.

[Roa_Aoife]

Under normal circumstances we will always be able to tell by virtue of the tally if a gifted was slain or de-gifted. If the number of wolves goes up, the gifted was slain since the EW's nightly curse was obviously used to create another wolf. If the number of wolves remains the same, then the EW's nightly curse was used to de-gift.

Not necessarily. What if the EW curses one ordo, while the GW uncurses a wolf, and a gifted is killed? The tally would show the wolves staying the same, while the gifteds go down one, and we have a dead villager. We don't know if the villager was a gifted who was killed or if the EW de-gifted someone at the same time the GW is uncursing someone else, unless the uncursed wolf comes forward, which they might not, because they might not be believed, or they might hope to be recursed the following Night.

As far as wolves killing wolves, I'm discounting that because it doesn't seem too likely that the EW would be a fan of that.

It goes back to strategy- if we only get tallies and not roles, then the EW could allow a wolf to die (especially once he/she gets enough wolves to afford the risk) to add to the general confusion and paranoia.

[littlemanpoet]

..... at least I think my tired brain has this worked out right. Please, please, please, say "IN FAVOR" or "NOT IN FAVOR" so my bleary eyes don't have to read and re-read the complexities of your arguments to figure out what you think. This game's hard enough for even ME to keep track of. (but I love the way you guys are getting into it )

Perhaps we could know the current tally but not the final roles of those who have died ...?

(you may change your votes of course)

In favor: 5

SPM
Celuien
Roa Aoife
the phantom
Feanor

Not in favor: 4

Lalaith
Nogrod
Diamond
Eonwe

Doesn't care: 1

Azaelia of Willowbottom

[the phantom]

What if the EW curses one ordo, while the GW uncurses a wolf, and a gifted is killed?

If that happened, the numbers would indicate that the other possibility is that the EW un-gifted someone, the GW scried an Ordo (with all three gifted roles already being filled), and the wolves killed an Ordo (or that the EW scried the GW, which is a rare one time occurence).

But in that situation, wouldn't the un-gifted come forward? He might as well. He is likely to be a pawn of the Wizards over the next couple of days, sure to be killed, re-gifted, cursed, or fought over in a wizard battle (or even if not, he will surely fear it, and the Wizards will consider it).

And also, the GW could tell everyone what had happened. As I predicted earlier, I believe it is likely that the GW will reveal him/herself by the fourth day, partially to clear up situations such as this.

If the number of Gifteds went down and nothing else, I personally would assume that the situation you described was what happened, unless someone told me different. And that's not even taking into account the possibility of, like you suggested, the uncursed Wolf coming forward.

Of course, you are completely right that there is another possibility (or two) in this situation and that my in-game assumptions may be wrong, but generally the tally will give enough information to get by, and the times it doesn't- the situation can be quickly rectified by an uncursed or de-gifted coming forward, or even the GW himself.

That's why I don't mind a tally only system. We are able to come up with certain situations that could lead to confusion, but they won't happen all the time, they can be resolved by others (especially the GW), and will only add a moderate amount of confusion, as opposed to if lmp didn't tell us anything and we weren't sure if we had all our gifteds and only two wolves, or if a gifted had just been killed during the night, another un-gifted, and another lynched during the day, and there were ten wolves running around. A tally is much better than nothing, I think.

(But, as I said before, once the normal WW game starts we should follow the usual rules and reveal dying roles)

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by the phantom

(But, as I said before, once the normal WW game starts we should follow the usual rules and reveal dying roles)

You can count on it. Sorry for not clearing that up earlier.

[the phantom]

You can count on it.

Ah, good. Thank you very much.

Anyone else having a difficult time waiting for this show to start?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Me! But more because if it doesn't start soon, I fear that I might live past day one and end up with time constraint issues. Impatience is merely a second thought. No... strike that... I can't wait!

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Anyone else having a difficult time waiting for this show to start?

You hear the banging on the table with various metallic kitchen implements? Accompanied by the chant of "Start the game! Start the game! We want werewolf! We want werewolf!"? That's coming from me.