Denethor's dislike of Gandalf

[Elianna]

So we all know that of Denethor's dislike of Faramir, and most know the main reason: because Denethor saw too much of himself in Faramir and thought that what Gondor need now was not another like himself, but like Boromir.

We also know that Denethor didn't like Gandalf. They seem always to be at odds, even in Denethor's youth, because we know that one reason why Denethor didn't like "Thorongil" was because the stranger was friends with Gandalf. This is also another reason Denethor didn't like Faramir, the wizard's pupil.

However we are also told that Denethor and Gandalf are similar; old, wise, powerful Stewards each.

One of my questions then is this: Why doesn't Denethor like Gandalf? Is that ever explained by Tolkien, or is it up to fanfiction writers? Simply two Type A personalities clashing? But Denethor wasn't really a Type A, but instead a wise man of far sight...

I myself have a guess at the reason: Denethor perhaps doesn't like Gandalf for the same reason of his dislike of Faramir; he sees too much of himself in Gandalf. And if this is right, it brings to mind my second question: why the self-loathing? Self-pity or self-doubt?

[Formendacil]

I don't think that Tolkien ever clearly explained it, but I should say that it has a great deal to do with Aragorn.

Aragorn and Gandalf were clearly associated. It says, in the Appendices, I believe, that when Thorongil came to Gondor, Ecthelion began to listen to Gandalf's counsels more than he previously had, and Gandalf became a greater factor in the Gondorian scheme of things.

Considering Denethor's dislike of Aragorn (based on the usurption of his father's affection and his thread to Denethor's status), it is easy to see that he would dislike Gandalf as Aragorn's partner.

Also, in later years, as Denethor used the Palantir, I imagine he did more than just look at the growing Ork armies. He would have been keeping tabs on Gandalf, and others (although I imagine that Aragorn was not one that he managed to keep an eye on, considering the number of years between when he left Gondor and when Denethor started using the Palantir. That and his changed status...)

And, as Denethor says before his death, he knows that Aragorn is coming from the north, and that Gandalf is associated with him. Since he talks about the "ranger from the north to supplant me", he obviously knows that they are connected, and that Aragorn is coming for the throne eventually. He's probably known this for quite some time.

And, Gandalf is well known as persuader/manipulator. I think it's very easy to see why Denethor dislikes him.

[Elianna]

I was under the impression that Denethor disliked Gandalf before Thorongil showed up.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Maybe because he was a mysterious figure, poking his nose where it doesn't belong: Gondor's affairs.

[Kath]

Maybe Denethor saw Gandalf as a rival. Both are wise and far-sighted and it might have been competitveness that began when he was young and saw his father take the views of strangers above his own.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

We should remember Denethor's position. Gandalf himself says that he is "a man of far greater lineage and power [than Théoden], though he is not called a king" (1). Although he holds more power and is of an older family than most of the kings of Middle-earth, he is still no more than a steward. In The Window on the West, Faramir reports a conversation from his childhood between his father and his brother:

And this I remember of Boromir as a boy, when we together learned the tale of our sires and the history of our city, that always it displeased him that his father was not king. "How many hundreds of years needs it to make a steward a king, if the king returns not?" he asked. "Few years, maybe, in other places of less royalty," my father answered. "In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice." (2)

One could take Denethor's words at face value as a simple explanation of why he cannot hold a king's title, but it is possible to read them as a complaint. Without a tone of voice the sentence becomes ambiguous, but at this point it is clear that he rejected at least the name of king, albeit possibly after the fashion of Caesar on the Lupercal.

Later in The Pyre of Denethor (Book V chapter 7), Denethor makes explicit his position. He may be content with the title of steward, but he has no intention of giving up his power.

'Do I not know thee, Mithrandir? Thy hope is to rule in my stead, to stand behind every throne, north, south or west. I have read thy mind and its policies. Do I not know that you commanded this halfling here to keep silence? That you brought him hither to be a spy within my very chamber? And yet in our speech together I have learned the names and purpose of all thy companions. So! With the left hand thou wouldst use me for a little while as a shield against Mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the North to supplant me.
'But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool! I am Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.'

'What then would you have,' said Gandalf, 'if your will could have its way?'

'I would have things as they were in all the days of my life,' answered Denethor, 'and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard's pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated.' (3)

This theme is repeated in Appendix A:

But there was little love between Denethor and Gandalf; and after the days of Ecthelion there was less welcome for the Grey Pilgrim in Minas Tirith. Therefore later, when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him. (4)

Not only does this explain Denethor's dislike of Gandalf, but it also explains his deep resentment of the wizard's hold over Faramir. He can see in Gandalf and Thorongil the end of his family's rule over Gondor, and his son's collusion with them must seem to him disloyalty of the worst kind.

Tolkien has little to say of Denethor in his published letters, but he does clearly set out the old steward's thinking.

Denethor was tainted with mere politics: hence his failure, and his mistrust of Faramir. It had become for him a prime motive to preserve the polity of Gondor, as it was, against another potentate, who had made himself stronger and was to be feared and opposed for that reason rather than because he was ruthless and wicked. Denethor despised lesser men, and one may be sure did not distinguish between orcs and the allies of Mordor. If he had survived as victor, even without use of the Ring, he would have taken a long stride towards becoming himself a tyrant, and the terms and treatment he accorded to the deluded peoples of east and south would have been cruel and vengeful. He had become a 'political' leader: sc. Gondor against the rest. (5)

From the above examples it should be clear that Denethor sees Gandalf as a threat to his own position. Although he still does not take for himself the title and honours pertaining to a king, he will not give up the political power that is the very soul and substance of kingship, which Gandalf and Aragorn are certain to insist upon. It is easy to see in him a veiled comment on the elected politicians of Tolkien's era. The most powerful man in British politics still calls himself 'Prime Minister', although the monarch's approval of his actions has been a formality for many years and is now assumed. In Tolkien's youth, David Lloyd-George had forced a reform bill through the House of Lords by threatening to have men of his own choosing elevated to the peerage if it was rejected. Although George V officially approved his Prime Minister's list of peers, he did not do so willingly and in reality it was forced upon him. Given Tolkien's odd polarised political preference for either anarchy or absolute monarchy, incidents such as this can hardly have appeared as improvements. Certainly he would have disapproved of people who insist on behaving as kings while proudly refusing to call themselves such. Of this ilk was Denethor, who was proud of the title 'Steward of Gondor' as long as that title carried with it the rule of the country. Gandalf was neither of Gondor nor possessed of Saruman's superficial majesty, which inspired his contempt; and the wizard was in the process of bringing kings back to Gondor, which inspired his animosity.

-

1: LotR Book V, chapter 1: Minas Tirith. RotK p.25 (page references are to the first edition).

2: LotR Book IV, chapter 5: The Window on the West. TTT p. 279.

3: LotR V, ch. 7: The Pyre of Denethor. RotK p.130.

4: LotR Appendix A: Annals of the Kings and Rulers. Section iv: Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion, The Stewards. RotK p.324.

5: Letter #183. Notes on W.H. Auden's review of 'The Return of the King'. Unsent, probably 1956. Letters, p.239 (1995 HarperCollins edition).

[Boromir88]

Thank you for that wonderful post Squatter.

There has been always something else about Denethor too, which I think is a reason for Denethor's dislike on Gandalf. Eomer was on the right track, now just needs a bit of explaining.

Thus pride increased in Denethor together with despair, until he saw in all the deeds of that time only a single combat between the Lord of the White Tower and the Lord of the Barad-dur, and mistrusted all others who resisted Sauron, unless they served himself alone.
~Appendix A: The Stewards.

It's clear that Denethor doesn't trust those who don't fight under him. Whether you were with Sauron, or against him (like Gandalf) if you didn't fight under him, he didn't like you. This to me is a big contribution to why Denethor doesn't like Gandalf. As Eomer puts it, Gandalf sort of butts into everyone affairs. The problem is, that Gandalf has that power, as discussed here. Denethor takes Gandalf's authority the wrong way. He see's Gandalf as trying to butt in on his rule, and that's something Denethor doesn't like anyone doing. Denethor sees himself as supreme ruler over Gondor, and it's no one else's but his.

I would also like to mention Theoden in this situation. Tolkien establishes many connections between Theoden and Denethor. I wonder if he's trying to show us the difference between a King and a Steward? Or just show the differences between the two? The key figure in both (in their downfall and their rise) is Gandalf.

Both Denethor and Theoden lost their wife a while back. They lost their son in heir. They are watching their kingdom on the verge of destruction. They are both put under the power of their respected enemies. Theoden is under Saruman's control (thanks to Grima) and Denethor loses in his fight with Sauron totally losing his mind. However where they are different is Theoden is able to rise above all his hardships and win glory, and die in glory. In LOTR we see his low point, and he rises up to his high point. Denethor we see his slow decline until he loses his mind and burns himself. I think the main reason for Theoden's rise, and Denethor's downfall is...Gandalf.

Theoden although he is a king, he shows humility and accepts Gandalf's advice. He listens to Gandalf, on his way to Helm's Deep he even admits that now he's learned of Saruman's power Gandalf's words don't sound as good as they did in the Golden Hall, and he wishes he knew now what he knew then. However, Theoden still goes along with Gandalf's advice, intrusting his whole Kingdom into Gandalf.

Denethor on the opposite hand doesn't take anything that Gandalf advises. They are constantly butting heads. Denethor sees himself as ruler of Gondor, and doesn't care for anyone, or anything else.

[Kath]

I think the main reason for Theoden's rise, and Denethor's downfall is...Gandalf.

Boromir88 are you saying that Gandalf wanted Denethor to fail? That he purposely set out to somehow get rid of him so Aragorn could come to power? Forgive me if I've got the wrong end of the stick here but it just seemed like that was what you were saying?

[lindil]

Denethor, Aragorn and Gandalf

was a thread that touched on some of this.

One point made was that Denethor had quite a few reasons to be concerned re: G and Aragorn. Some tainted w/ pride others merely prudent.

1] Aragorn's forebearers had let their kingdom dissolve, even with major Gondorian and Elvish intervention. Why trust a line whose Kings had lost firsr a kingdom[arnor] then a 'princedom' [arthedain]?

2] Just how honest was Gandalf w/ Denethor as to who he was and what his commision was, he hints at it with the ' do you not know I am also a steward' but perhaps plainer speech was in order.

3] Did Aragorn perhaps aid in Denethors suicide by failing to sail into the Harbor at Pellenor w/ a Gondorian Banner instead of the White Tree?

Surely he would have thought out that D. and many others would spy their arrival.

4] Denethor may well been aware of the activities of the White Council and been bitter about non-inclusion. He may well have fronted the largest of the armies [excepting rohan] and certainly was holding a line [more or less] that gave the 'Wizards, Elves and half-Elves' a much greater freedom to shore up their defences and plan strategy.

5] Gandalf's 'brother' wizard had just gone renegade, why should he trust Gandalf?

6] Why no serious allies offering help from the North, just a throne claiment and a few hobbits and one each of an Elf, dwarf and a Wizard.

7] Denethor may well have suspected or even seen [unlikely given the nature and tone of his questioning of pippin] Boromir die [hearing the horn and running to the Palantir]. But he could undoubtedly only have been suspicious that as soon as they were within the Bounds of Gondor, B. is dead fighting many orcs alone of the company!

8] Gandalf was hardly playing straight w/ D. re: Aragorn and his immediate plans. He may well have guessed that the Palantir had been recovered and instead of being handed to him, Gandalf acted unilateraly and gave it to Aragorn.

While all of the above was seen [if D knew it all which is unlikely] from D.'s paranoid and proud mind, it seems G did little to assuage D's fears, and indeed w/ his stance to Aragorn fixed, it would be hard for him too.

Yet nonetheless in hindsight I can't help wonder if D. could have been treated more along the lines of 'Council Members'.

[Boromir88]

Sorry I didn't make it more clear Kath. I mean by Theoden opening up and listening to Gandalf's advice he dies in glory. Where Denethor refuses Gandalf's advice and goes by his own judgement, he isn't redeemed in the end.

[Kath]

I mean by Theoden opening up and listening to Gandalf's advice he dies in glory. Where Denethor refuses Gandalf's advice and goes by his own judgement, he isn't redeemed in the end.

Maybe so Boromir88 (and thanks for clearing that up!) but this could be less to do with the advice and more to do with the person. Gandalf only brought Theoden back from the hell Wormtongue had taken him into. He gave Theoden back his own will and power and then left him to make his own decisions from there. Denethor on the other hnad seemed, if not actually mentally ill then at least on the brink even when Gandalf first arrived. He may have been incapable of seeing Gandalf as trying to help. And he may have been going more by Sauron's judgement than by his own thanks to all the time he spent looking into the palantir and so allowing Sauron to see the workings of his mind.

[Ainaserkewen]

Maybe Denethor saw Gandalf as a rival.

I always thought of the animosity between the two old men to be very similar to the reasons of Saruman's fall from grace. I've always thought that Denethor was jealous of Gandalf, outrightly. It's evident in the way he treats the old wizard and the way he's always trying to overrule him. Similar of course to how Saruman felt about him. And they both had the palantirs as well. I feel there is an important connection between Saruman and Denethor, at least Character-wise.

[Saurreg]

Perhaps Denethor disliked Gandalf because he secretly feared the grey pilgrim also. This fear could stem out of sensing an aura of power and wisdom around the wizard and also the lack of knowledge of Gandalf's origins. Denethor being a proud and masterful man must have wanted to have a grasp on everything and he would not have felt secured with the mysterous presence of one person who held sway on so many, much less his own son.

[Alcarillo]

Originally Posted by Elianna

So we all know that of Denethor's dislike of Faramir, and most know the main reason: because Denethor saw too much of himself in Faramir and thought that what Gondor need now was not another like himself, but like Boromir.

I always thought that Denethor disliked Faramir not because they were similar, but because Faramir reminded Denenthor of Finduilas, his dead wife. However, it is said of Boromir that he was:

... beloved by his father, was like him in face and pride, but in little else.

So similarities ended there. Of Faramir it is said that:

He read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he read moved him sooner to pity than to scorn. He was gentle in bearing, ...

So Faramir is obviously kinder than his father. From what I can tell I think that Boromir was more similar to Denethor, but that's just my own judgement.

[Rhod the Red]

Denethor, when growing up before becoming Steward, was disturbed at the 'usurpurs' of Gandalf and Saruman visiting Minas Tirith and advising his father on the policies of Gondor.

You will note that in the Return of the King he mentiones his view that "there can be no greater purpose than the good of Gondor". He saw himself as rising to the position and then defending Gondor's sovreignty against both Mordor and the Israri.

So it was straight power and poltical reasons he disliked Gandalf.

[tom bombariffic]

These are mostly good points, but there's another reason that hasn't really been touched upon, which is many middle earth inhabitants' inherent distrust of Gandalf (Elves and Animals obviously excepted, along with a few others eg Aragorn).

Take, for example, Theoden's original reception of Gandalf in TTT:

...truth to tell your welcome is doubtful here, Master Gandalf. You have ever been a herald of woe. Troubles follow you like crows, and ever the oftener the worse...Here you come again! And with evils worse than before, as might be expected. Why should I welcome you, Gandalf Stormcrow?

Granted, Theoden is not in his right mind in this passage. But still evident is a sentiment of mistrust of Gandalf, because he is generally a harbinger of trouble. Of course, as readers, we know that Gandalf's appearances extinguish rather than kindle fires, but Theoden and the people of Rohan could be forgiven for mistaking this, and thinking that he is a dangerous troublemaker, as his few appearances tend to be closely followed by the possibility of death and nice long rambles to helm's deep etc etc.

A similar sentiment can be seen in the Shire, where, after Bilbo's disappearance,

the blame was mostly laid on Gandalf.
"If only that dratted wizard will leave young Frodo alone, perhaps he'll settle down and grow some hobbit-sense," they said.

Gandalf is similarly seen as a bad influence by the shirefolk in "The Hobbit", which, unfortunately, I do not have to hand.

My point is that, to many people in Middle-Earth, Gandalf is a mysterious figure who comes and goes as he pleases, usually accompanied by bad news or mysterious disappearances. Thus, though Denethor is further-seeing than hobbits and, arguably, than Theoden, it would not be a surprise if he dreaded Gandalf's appearances, and saw him as a thorn in his side.

This is not to challenge any of the above points, most of which seem very valid, rather it is another small reason why Denethor may have disliked Gandalf - he is bad news, and, given how secretive Gandalf is, a lot of his good work would have gone completely overlooked by the people he was actually helping.