Lord of the Rings - English Icon - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Bêthberry · 04-28-2006, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

The Legendarium came from an English mind, heart & hand & that is why it appeals to so many readers across so many different cultures. Only an English writer of the 20th century could have produced a work like LotR.

Where to turn in a time like this? Why, of course to Gilbert and Sullivan.

He is the very model of an anti-modern mythic pastoral
with information historical, linquistical, and even saceral
He knows the kings of Numenor and quotes the stories mythical
From Sirion to Bagshot Hoo, in scenery quite spectactacle.

He’s very well acquainted with matters fantastical
He understands relations both the plain and the profundical
About theorems minstrel he’s teeming with a lot of views
With many dour and dreadful things about eucatastric news.

He’s very good at eternal and even short term fellness
He knows the entish names of creatures ficticious.
In short, in matters historical, linguistical and saceral
He is the very model of an anti-modern mythic pastoral.

etc. etc. ~~

Thinlómien · 04-29-2006, 04:18 AM

Yes, LotR is an English icon. The fact that I don't always necessarily think about England when LotR is mentioned is not enough to undo it. I don't always think about England when I drink tea, but I'd stil recognise it as an English icon.

LotR, like tea, is so internationally widespread that they don't belong only to England. However, it can still be an English icon. England is the place of origin, but it is not the only thing that defines LotR. We can't view LotR as a purely English thing, but we can't deny its place as an English icon either.

Tolkien's intention was to write a mythology for England. I think he succeeded. Various articles that claim LotR as "England's favourite book" (most people's favourite book or the book they consider the best). I think this strongly speaks for that Tolkien created a mythology and the English people accepted it.

That, if something, makes LotR an English icon.

Hilde Bracegirdle · 04-29-2006, 07:16 AM

Brilliant verse, Bethberry!

I think I should propose that Tolkien himself be considered the icon, like Shakespeare or Gillbert and Sullivan.

But perhaps the definition will help me out here.

Quote:

i·con

1. a. An image; a representation.

b. A representation or picture of a sacred or sanctified Christian personage,
traditionally used and venerated in the Eastern Church.

2. An important and enduring symbol:

3. One who is the object of great attention and devotion; an idol.

4. A picture on a screen that represents a specific file, directory, window, option,
or program.

Ah well! I can see that I am stuck on definition 2 and I think we are aiming more at 1a.

Thinlómien, I am assuming that you are refering to afternoon tea?

I hope that I'm not coming across as wanting to deny LotR as an English icon, just having a brain that is stuck in definition 2 of the word icon, I don't see it as an immediately recognizable symbol though it may well be symbolic of the culture from which it sprang.

davem · 04-29-2006, 11:33 AM

What about the three piece suit (Jacket, trousers & waistcoat)? Would that be an 'English' icon. Probably most people would not think it was as it has now been adopted over most of the world, but originally it was 'English' dress. I suspect that as with the suit, LotR is not seen as particularly English by many readers from other countries because so many aspects of English culture & values have been absorbed into other cultures across the English-speaking world to such a degree that they are no longer recognisably English.

As Tolkien would have pointed out a language is not simply a neutral means of communicating information, but reflects a particular way of seeing, & thinking about, the world, a mentality & value system. If you don't think of LotR as particularly English that probably means that your cultural background is pretty 'English' anyway (whether you llke the idea or not!).

Bêthberry · 04-29-2006, 09:07 PM

Good show, Hilde at calling up just what icon means.

A visual element seems especially pertinent. And on that ground, I find it difficult to think of a specific book as an icon. A book's aesthetic effect lies in the imagination, formed by the act of reading, rather than in a specific object. A cup of tea is a specific image. The famous London telephone booths are a specific image. Elizabeth I may be said to have become an icon, which is fascinating given how many icons she herself employed in her famous portraits--standing on a map of the world, the orb, etc. Big Ben provides a visual image. Is that last picture of Tolkien, touching the pinus nigra, an icon?

But between an icon and an idol, now there may be more than a few qualitative differences. I sometimes think that Tolkien fans do verge towards idolatry.

But I think you're on to something to suggest the man rather than the book.

A bit surprising that an English site would play so fast and loose with the clarity of the English language--now there you go! Another "icon" for England from one of the new world types.

Lalwendë · 04-30-2006, 06:15 AM

I don't think they are defining 'icon' so rigidly. They are looking for things which simply resonate with English identity. If cultural items such as Alice in Wonderland, Pride and Prejudice and the King James Bible have already been included, then why not Lord of the Rings?

Some of my strongest English Icons would be pieces of music, e.g. The Lark Ascending, Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, Jerusalem and Jupiter from the Planet Suite. None of these could be said to be 'visual' in any way, but when I hear them I immediately think of England. One of these was not composed by an Englishman, but nevertheless it is thoroughly English. Likewise LOTR may resonate with people from other countries in their own way, and they may not see it as specifically English, but I see the whole work, not just the Hobbits and The Shire, as English.

Mithalwen · 04-30-2006, 06:30 AM

Holst was British - it is a classic quiz question ..so was Delius..... obviously some Germanic heritage (like the queen)but like Handel definitely wrote English music...

Actually - inspired by Formendacil's apologia in "of another World " I got a book out of the library on religion which said that Icons were "windows on heaven"..which is a rather nice definition.

K2 telephone boxes definitely - would anyone understand out there if I call them "Darling Doris"es?- but I think I would consign Stonehenge to Mordor...
It is close enough that you have to take foreign visitors there and they are always disappointed. It was different before - the first time I went you could go right up to the stones and even for someone like me who couldn't be less into the hippy dippy stuff I remember there was a certain spirit of place.... Last time I went I told American friend that there were other stones in the area - meaning Avebury/Amesbury . She said "I think there are some over there" "Actually, I think those are sheep....."

04-29-2006, 04:18 AM	#2
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	Yes, LotR is an English icon. The fact that I don't always necessarily think about England when LotR is mentioned is not enough to undo it. I don't always think about England when I drink tea, but I'd stil recognise it as an English icon. LotR, like tea, is so internationally widespread that they don't belong only to England. However, it can still be an English icon. England is the place of origin, but it is not the only thing that defines LotR. We can't view LotR as a purely English thing, but we can't deny its place as an English icon either. Tolkien's intention was to write a mythology for England. I think he succeeded. Various articles that claim LotR as "England's favourite book" (most people's favourite book or the book they consider the best). I think this strongly speaks for that Tolkien created a mythology and the English people accepted it. That, if something, makes LotR an English icon. __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

04-29-2006, 11:33 AM	#4
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	What about the three piece suit (Jacket, trousers & waistcoat)? Would that be an 'English' icon. Probably most people would not think it was as it has now been adopted over most of the world, but originally it was 'English' dress. I suspect that as with the suit, LotR is not seen as particularly English by many readers from other countries because so many aspects of English culture & values have been absorbed into other cultures across the English-speaking world to such a degree that they are no longer recognisably English. As Tolkien would have pointed out a language is not simply a neutral means of communicating information, but reflects a particular way of seeing, & thinking about, the world, a mentality & value system. If you don't think of LotR as particularly English that probably means that your cultural background is pretty 'English' anyway (whether you llke the idea or not!). __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

04-29-2006, 09:07 PM	#5
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Good show, Hilde at calling up just what icon means. A visual element seems especially pertinent. And on that ground, I find it difficult to think of a specific book as an icon. A book's aesthetic effect lies in the imagination, formed by the act of reading, rather than in a specific object. A cup of tea is a specific image. The famous London telephone booths are a specific image. Elizabeth I may be said to have become an icon, which is fascinating given how many icons she herself employed in her famous portraits--standing on a map of the world, the orb, etc. Big Ben provides a visual image. Is that last picture of Tolkien, touching the pinus nigra, an icon? But between an icon and an idol, now there may be more than a few qualitative differences. I sometimes think that Tolkien fans do verge towards idolatry. But I think you're on to something to suggest the man rather than the book. A bit surprising that an English site would play so fast and loose with the clarity of the English language--now there you go! Another "icon" for England from one of the new world types. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

04-30-2006, 06:15 AM	#6
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	I don't think they are defining 'icon' so rigidly. They are looking for things which simply resonate with English identity. If cultural items such as Alice in Wonderland, Pride and Prejudice and the King James Bible have already been included, then why not Lord of the Rings? Some of my strongest English Icons would be pieces of music, e.g. The Lark Ascending, Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, Jerusalem and Jupiter from the Planet Suite. None of these could be said to be 'visual' in any way, but when I hear them I immediately think of England. One of these was not composed by an Englishman, but nevertheless it is thoroughly English. Likewise LOTR may resonate with people from other countries in their own way, and they may not see it as specifically English, but I see the whole work, not just the Hobbits and The Shire, as English. __________________ Gordon's alive!

04-30-2006, 06:30 AM	#7
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Holst was British - it is a classic quiz question ..so was Delius..... obviously some Germanic heritage (like the queen)but like Handel definitely wrote English music... Actually - inspired by Formendacil's apologia in "of another World " I got a book out of the library on religion which said that Icons were "windows on heaven"..which is a rather nice definition. K2 telephone boxes definitely - would anyone understand out there if I call them "Darling Doris"es?- but I think I would consign Stonehenge to Mordor... It is close enough that you have to take foreign visitors there and they are always disappointed. It was different before - the first time I went you could go right up to the stones and even for someone like me who couldn't be less into the hippy dippy stuff I remember there was a certain spirit of place.... Last time I went I told American friend that there were other stones in the area - meaning Avebury/Amesbury . She said "I think there are some over there" "Actually, I think those are sheep....." __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace Last edited by Mithalwen; 04-30-2006 at 06:40 AM.