Lord of the Rings - English Icon

[Bêthberry]

The Shire possibly would make it as an English icon--all that green and pleasant land stuff. And I suppose those sturdy, stalworth hobbits. If there were white cliffs somewhere, even just at The Havens, I would say definitely.

As for the entire LotR or the Legendarium, well, that could well be in the eyes of the beholder. There are too many places that don't necessarily shout out "skeptic isle", such as Rivendell, Lothlorien, Minas Tirith, Dale. The theme is too universal and the convergence of all the various actions speaks to something broader than one nation. Thankfully I never get the sense that Frodo fought them on the beaches, fought them on the etc, and never surrendered. LotR is broader than simply England--all those nods to the northern mythologies lifts it above national iconography.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Only and Englishperson (who is so immersed in the place that he or she cannot 'see' it from within a different context) or someone who knows absolutely nothing about England could ever doubt the iconic status of Tolkien and his works as English with an extra-large capital E.

Bb's already pointed out the Shire but even more telling than that would be:

Social Relations: how people relate to one another and how they think about the place of the individual in society: English through and through, until you get to problematic figures like Boromir who is far more American -- a cowboy, really, with all that lone gun bravado stuff; rugged individualism.

Language: my goodness, but when you have moments of naturalistic language (i.e. not the 'high talk' of courtly or epic moments that everyone is prone to in the story, save Sam) it's like listening to my family from Sussex!

History: or, rather, the attitude toward it. The sense of a glorious past, the best parts of which must be preserved against decay. A wonderful openness to innovation and change, but a guarded one. Compare that to a more New World attitude to history: when anyone over here even knows it, we tend to regard it as dead and not nearly as important as the future.

Food: would a Frenchman have described the meals of M-E the way we have them? The imagination balks: lembaguette? cram with cranberry sauce? Bottled hare with taters-frites?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I would say that, even though Tolkien originally wrote it as an English mythology, it has so many elements that are applicable to everyone, really. Tolkien was, of course, adamant about the applicability of his book, so it was (one could argue) appropriate for anyone interested in a good story.
I would still class it an English icon, really. I find it hard to imagine any of the characters with anything but an English (or at least British) accent of some kind. Especially Gandalf. As Bêthberry has said, the Shire is very much alike to the rural England in which Tolkien grew up in and loved, and gives it a greater English feel.
What is more, it follows the stereotypically English home comforts; a comfortable home, a bright garden, toast in the morning, and, of course, a good pipe. The idea of the smallest people struggling on in the face of dire odds is an international ideology (I think), yet triumph over adversity is always a well-loved tale in merry old England.
I'm not saying The Lord of the Rings is not meant for any other country, but I think it can fit as an English icon. Even more so than King Arthur (him being French, of course, ) ... (Not that there’s anything wrong with being French, of course )

[Lalwendë]

At the risk of being wormy, if LOTR has a broader reach than simply England, does this mean that the Englishness of the text is simply being picked up on by world cultures which themselves have absorbed English influences?

Does an English Icon need to be purely parochial? Or can it also be an Icon that is appreciated by a global audience? Other Icons include Alice In Wonderland and the Miniskirt, which do have global audiences. They are not limited to England, nor were the influences on their development be purely English, but they are nevertheless English Icons which have 'gone global', as LOTR has.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Regardless of its international appeal, (even though its hard to ignore), I'd say that it still remains an English icon. Well, tea isn't just drunk in England, now is it? My older brother described Tolkien's writing style (especially in The Hobbit) as like an old Grandfather telling small children a tale at bed time. Personally, I think of this as a very English image (at least, with Tolkien with his pipe and tweed ).

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

At the risk of being wormy, if LOTR has a broader reach than simply England, does this mean that the Englishness of the text is simply being picked up on by world cultures which themselves have absorbed English influences?

Does an English Icon need to be purely parochial? Or can it also be an Icon that is appreciated by a global audience? Other Icons include Alice In Wonderland and the Miniskirt, which do have global audiences. They are not limited to England, nor were the influences on their development be purely English, but they are nevertheless English Icons which have 'gone global', as LOTR has.

Got new for you Lal: to the rest of the world, Englishness is exotic. A wild idea, I know, but everyone in the world thinks of themselves and where they are as normal and everywhere else as exotic. We tend to disparage the normal (who wants to be normal) and value the exotic (oooooo, that's so wonderfully exotic). So to the rest of the world, the Englishness of LotR is something that we react to not with familiarity (those "absorbed English influences") but with the thrill of the unfamiliar.

For North American readers there's Elves, Dwarves, Dragons and Wizards alongside waistcoats, people who say "fiddlesticks", castles, and a monarchy -- we don't have any of those things over here!

But I daresay that this exotic-Englishness appeals to English readers as well since the England that Tolkien preserved (quite Elvishly, I might add...) in his stories is one that no longer really exists either. So I would argue that every reader of the story exists at least one remove from the English-aura we find there...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Does an English Icon need to be purely parochial? Or can it also be an Icon that is appreciated by a global audience?

Those living elsewhere in the world may eat a Full English Breakfast, drink a Pint of Warm Bitter or drive a Mini (though hopefully not all at the same time), and greatly enjoy the experience, but English icons they remain. So it is with The Lord of the Rings.

Definately an English icon in my view. I voted for it.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Fordim

But I daresay that this exotic-Englishness appeals to English readers as well since the England that Tolkien preserved (quite Elvishly, I might add...) in his stories is one that no longer really exists either. So I would argue that every reader of the story exists at least one remove from the English-aura we find there...

I remember posting some time back that I found it difficult to understand how non English readers related so strongly to LotR, because I personally found so essentially English & getting quite a negative response from some fans in other countries.

It was almost as if they felt that I was attempting to exclude them, say they didn't have a 'right' to Tolkien's work. Needless to say that wasn't the point I was making at all. It just seemed to me that the work was so English that it must seem a bit 'alien' to anyone who had not been born & brought up here.

Clearly that's not the case. Something Flieger said struck me, that the work, because its so essentially English actually becomes 'universal'. I think what she meant was that because Tolkien didn't attempt to produce some kind of 'mid-Atlantic' or pan-European work that tried to appeal to everybody, his work had a kind inner cultural 'unity' (no I'm not sure what I mean by that exactly - I'm struggling here) that makes it seem real. Its not inclusive, politically correct, struggling not to offend anyone so that it will appeal to a mass market (& inevitably appealing to no-one in particular as a result). Its a work with universal appeal precisely because its so English. Its the same with War & Peace, which speaks to all cultures precisely because it is so Russian. These kinds of works reveal our common humanity because they are so particularly of the culture which the author comes from. A work which attempts to be all things to all readers tends to be a confused mess, 'multi-cultural', 'politically correct' & with no real identity or sense of place.

Originally Posted by Bb

LotR is broader than simply England--all those nods to the northern mythologies lifts it above national iconography.

I suppose one could argue the same for the plays of Shakespeare, yet whose work is more typically English, because of, rather than in spite of, its multi-national/multi-cultural settings? The Legendarium came from an English mind, heart & hand & that is why it appeals to so many readers across so many different cultures. Only an English writer of the 20th century could have produced a work like LotR.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

You know, I think that it maybe an icon to the English who recognize the strong ties to their country, but to the rest of us, it is a darn good read, even if we haven't a clue that there is a country/culture that vaguely resembles M-E (or perhaps the Shire). Thus having said that, it would be hard for me to say it is an English icon, because it doesn't feel particularly English to me since I don't know what Englishness feels like. And neither does it feel particularly exotic, though on reflection, that statement is a strange one, and yet there you have it. It has just enough attachment to the language and values of the recent past make it familiar, despite the sometimes strange landscapes or inhabitants.

The long shot of it is that if you mention LotR, England doesn't immediately come to mind, whereas if you say 'cricket' or 'Trafalger Square' it does.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

The Legendarium came from an English mind, heart & hand & that is why it appeals to so many readers across so many different cultures. Only an English writer of the 20th century could have produced a work like LotR.

Where to turn in a time like this? Why, of course to Gilbert and Sullivan.

He is the very model of an anti-modern mythic pastoral
with information historical, linquistical, and even saceral
He knows the kings of Numenor and quotes the stories mythical
From Sirion to Bagshot Hoo, in scenery quite spectactacle.

He’s very well acquainted with matters fantastical
He understands relations both the plain and the profundical
About theorems minstrel he’s teeming with a lot of views
With many dour and dreadful things about eucatastric news.

He’s very good at eternal and even short term fellness
He knows the entish names of creatures ficticious.
In short, in matters historical, linguistical and saceral
He is the very model of an anti-modern mythic pastoral.

etc. etc. ~~