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Old 04-23-2006, 02:12 AM   #1
Raynor
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That said, if Gandalf wasn't incumbered by the mandate and allowed to manifest as the Maia Olorin, would he have been as powerful as Sauron? Powerful enough to take him on one-on-one?
The original five maiars were said to be "mighty, peers of Sauron", cf The Istari, Unfinished Tales.
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For that matter, was anyone fully aware that the wizards were also Maiar?
I doubt that; Gandalf himself was considered by Men just an elf, cf the same source above.
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That said, if Sauron had reclaimed the ring/regained all of his power, could the Valar have still personally unseated him if they'd gotten super-****ed (as they did with Morgoth).
I doubt that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RotK, the last debate
If he regains it, your valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts.(Gandalf)
But you can always bet on euchatastrophe in Tolkien's world .
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Is it feasible to suggest that perhaps one of his lieutenants--Sauron in all likelihood--might have tried to overthrow him;
I wouldn't say so:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myths Transformed
Melkor was not Sauron. We speak of him being 'weakened, shrunken, reduced'; but this is in comparison with the great Valar. He had been a being of immense potency and life.
and more to the point:
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While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor, whom in the beginning he had adored.
(and even in RotK, Sauron is named "servant of Morgoth").
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was Ungoliant more powerful than Morgoth?
At the time they confronted each other, Melkor was weakened and he transfered a lot of his power to Ungoliant, who also sucked dry the Two Trees, the wells of Varda and absorbed the power of many noldor artefacts; we don't even know if she could have actually kill him. In "normal" conditions, Ungoliant would lose, imo.
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Old 04-23-2006, 03:06 AM   #2
The 1,000 Reader
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Originally Posted by Raynor
In "normal" conditions, Ungoliant would lose, imo.


Yes, but in the world of Middle-Earth there are hardly "normal" conditions.



(This may not mean anything, but it may be of importance.)

(P.S. One poster's mentioning of DBZ was on the spot. It was mainly a whole "Power Level" thing, with apparent constipation going on to reach said power.)
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Old 04-23-2006, 03:57 AM   #3
Anguirel
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To help with the latter half of question two, here's another thread:

Gandalf as a Maia? by dwarfguard

I have fond memories of it; it was one of the first I posted in...it got rather fraught with argument and digression, but it's fascinating.
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Old 04-23-2006, 01:55 PM   #4
The 1,000 Reader
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I'm pretty dang sure that Gandalf would know who he was. It wasn't like they needed to pull a mindwipe on their trusted agents.
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"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that."

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Old 04-24-2006, 12:21 AM   #5
Raynor
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Indeed:
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Originally Posted by The Istari, Unfinished Tales
...and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly
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