Absolutely Evil

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Besides, if perfection is so boring, why is it that practically everybody is trying to better themselves in some way?

Striving for the impossible means that you'll never run out of something to work toward. Why bother doing anything if you already have everything?

A thought... Captain Jack Sparrow once said that you can always trust a dishonest person to be dishonest. It's the honest ones you have to watch out for, honestly, because you can never tell when they're about to do something really stupid.

If there was such thing as absolute evil, even in a fictional world, it would be too easy to combat; too predictable.

[JennyHallu]

I'm afraid I'd have to argue that no human being is really in a position to know because (as far as I know) no human being has ever been there.

Adam and Eve experienced perfection and were dissatisfied, defying the only law they had.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Adam and Eve experienced perfection and were dissatisfied, defying the only law they had.

Subject to debate [though not on this forum].

[JennyHallu]

Fea: Shush! Trying to agree with you here!

But seriously, the only historical or religious mention we have of a perfect world is Eden, and that would certainly be what the Christian Tolkien would have thought of. And in that case, men were dissatisfied with perfection, and tested it.

[Kuruharan]

We squirm in perfect cages.

I don't think anybody certainly identifiable has ever been in a situation of perfection to test this particular proposition of yours. If anybody ever has been, undoubtedly everybody around them thought they were distressingly boring and did not want to pay any attention to them.

Like Tolkien's humans, we're travellers, never happy with the status quo.

Yes.

Striving for the impossible means that you'll never run out of something to work toward. Why bother doing anything if you already have everything?

I've heard somewhere that perfection can only be experienced in an ending. Perhaps this is the reason why.

Adam and Eve experienced perfection and were dissatisfied, defying the only law they had.

-and-

And in that case, men were dissatisfied with perfection, and tested it.

*Sticking self about as far out on limb as self probably should go*

One could probably argue that in this case the imperfection lay within themselves in their inability to be content rather than in their environment.

Indeed, lack of contentment seems to lead to all kinds of trouble...look at Melkor, Feanor, the Noldor in general, the Numenoreans... *drags topic back to Tolkien where it will hopefully remain*

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I don't think anybody certainly identifiable has ever been in a situation of perfection to test this particular proposition of yours. If anybody ever has been, undoubtedly everybody around them thought they were distressingly boring and did not want to pay any attention to them.

God. Why would an infinite god require anything such as beings whose lot it is to continually praise him? Think that I asked this before, and will most likely get the same responses (prescient I am). Lucky us that Eru decided to create Arda, to not only to relieve its own boredom but also so that we have this forum.

I've heard somewhere that perfection can only be experienced in an ending. Perhaps this is the reason why.

Perfectly dead? Meaning stasis - no change? Is that why the elves were thought to be more perfect then the Second Born, who seemingly just couldn't find contentment within Arda?

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Striving for the impossible means that you'll never run out of something to work toward. Why bother doing anything if you already have everything?

This reminds me of a teammate (co-ed) whom I wouldn't date even though she thought herself 'all that.' She would routinely look herself up and down and state, "What's not to like?"

[davem]

I think the point is that people are seeing 'perfection' as equalling stasis. This is clearly not necessary. A sunset may be 'perfect' but it is a process rather than a 'moment'. You could have a perfect world which involved change, process, without the presence of evil in it. As I said earlier: 'Variety would still exist - colours, shapes, textures, tastes, even sadness & happiness (not all tears are an evil).'

The mistake is to believe that evil is necessary in order for there to be interesting or challenging events. As Bilbo said 'In every wood, in every spring, there is a different green'. Men are fated to be restless in Arda, always looking for something else, but while this may lead some of them into 'sin' sin, in & of itself is not the only response. Men may be seduced into evil acts but they don't have to be. We all do lots of different things to fill our days, but how many of those things are 'evil'? Most of actually do a variety of 'good' or 'neutral' things most of the time. We could all do 'good' things all of the time (or at least neutral things most of the time) if we chose.

I find the idea that evil is necessary because pure good would be boring to be a very dangerous concept....Melkorian, if you will.

[Aiwendil]

Davem wrote:

But surely 'Perfect' is Perfect & cannot be bettered. Perfect implies absence of any flaws. If a thing can be bettered it is not perfect. And if we are speaking of something made/concieved by a perfect being surely the thing should be beyond improvement?

Again, I don't see why this need be so. I've even given an example where, in myh opinion (and, I'd venture to say, the opinion of a number of musical scholars), one work can be both greater and more imperfect than another. I think that Tolkien would say that Arda Healed is not an "improvement" upon Arda Unmarred; it's a different thing, and greater - even if Arda Unmarred would have been "perfect"

Mozart's 41st is just about perfect as a Classical symphony. Beethoven's 5th is perhaps not perfect, but is more than a Classical symphony.

To take an example closer to home, as it were, I think a great many people feel the Silmarillion is a greater work than LotR, despite the fact that it is obviously more imperfect.

As to the quotes you gave re: Arda Envinyantar - these are only Elvish speculations or hopes, it seems to me, & therefore we cannot necessarily take them as 'facts'.

It certainly seems to me that Tolkien is speaking through Finrod's mouth - I would be very surprised indeed to discover evidence that Tolkien's views on the theology of Arda differed from Finrod's.

But in any case the first bit I quoted is spoken not by an Elf but by Manwe himself!