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12-26-2000, 07:15 PM | #1 |
Spirit of Mist
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Did the Valar make a huge mistake?
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 387</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> When you read the Silmarillion (and perhaps more so with HoME), there is one single event which sets things tumbling towards the events of the First and later Ages. This event is the summons of the Valar, calling the elves to live in Valinor. The Nature of the elves was to love, foster, cultivate and preserve Middle Earth. The Summons of the Valar tears the elves away from their fundamental purpose. Yes, some declined the summons and others turned back, but ultimately the Noldor rebelled to return to Middle Earth resulting in a disasterous war which shaped the following ages. Was the Summons of the Valar a tragic mistake which itself doomed the Noldor as well as the elves living still in Middle Earth? --Mithadan-- "The Silmarils with living light were kindled clear, and waxing bright shone like stars that in the North above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
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12-26-2000, 07:32 PM | #2 |
Night In Wight Satin
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1655</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Did the Valar make a huge mistake? The Valar made the summons to protect the Elves from Melkor, right? Or at least that was their motivation. So it is neccesary to evaluated what did happen with what might have happened (something I'm not prepared to do at the moment). The Barrow-Wight (RKittle) <font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>
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12-26-2000, 08:25 PM | #3 |
Essence of Darkness
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Essence of Darkness
Posts: 621</TD><TD><img src=http://www.geocities.com/gwindlord/eagle.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Did the Valar make a huge mistake? No, I don't think they did. The Elves, stuck by the bay of Helcar and hemmed there by Morgoth, were neither enriching Middle-Earth nor acheiving anything. The Valar spread them right accross Middle-Earth when they summoned the Eldar to Valinor, and in so doing allowed the Elves to work their healing powers on the land. Caliquendi, the elves that reached Valinor, were twice as powerful as Moriquendi, the Elves that never made it (with the exception of the Sindar of Beleriand, who drew close; and even then they would not have without the teaching of the Valar-educated Noldor). Without the Valar, all Elves would be Avari; rustic folk that would have dwindled quickly in the First Age and had no hope of ever defeating Morgoth. Gwaihir the Windlord http://www.barrowdowns.comthe barrow-downs</A> <FONT size="2.5">'Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor, for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever, and the Dark Tower is thrown down.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000022>Gwaihir the Windlord</A> <IMG SRC=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 12/26/00 9:28:06 pm |
12-27-2000, 01:06 AM | #4 |
Shadow of Malice
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 120</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Did the Valar make a huge mistake? I have to say that the Valar made a big mistake. Not in summoning the Eldar(that was a good decision). But in forsaking Middle Earth in the first place. After the first thing Melkor did wrong, the Valar should have cast him into the outer void, then Middle Earth could have been nice and peaceful for all of the Children of Iluvatar. But then again evil is bad yet it is good for it to have been. </p> |
12-27-2000, 03:44 AM | #5 |
Deadnight Chanter
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Wight
Posts: 249 I deem they did. If only Valar had listened to Ulmo on their summit where the fate of Quendi was discussed, much evil would have been avoided afterwards.
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12-27-2000, 09:46 AM | #6 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 306</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Re: Did the Valar make a huge mistake? <blockquote>Quote:<hr> After the first thing Melkor did wrong, the Valar should have cast him into the outer void, then Middle Earth could have been nice and peaceful for all of the Children of Iluvatar.<hr></blockquote> Misdemeanor Capital Punishment advocate here I see. Definately not a 3 strikes person. Did the Valar make a mistake with the summoning of the Elves? NOPE! The themes needed certain events to unfold. Could those have happened otherwise? Possibly. Would they have been as effective? Nope. Did the Valar make a mistake in 'abandoning' ME? NOPE! Same situation. </p> |
12-27-2000, 12:27 PM | #7 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 88</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Re: Did the Valar make a huge mistake? In my opinnion, summoning the elves was the best decision that the Valar could have made. True, the summons caused 'many woes', as Tolkien says, but the outcome could hardly have been any better had the Valar done otherwise. Had the elves been left to their own devices in Middle Earth they would have had a lot of trouble with the evil creatures - and Sauron - that were still lurking about there. Furthermore, had the elves never come to Valinor and looked upon the greatest of the Ainur and the makers of Arda, the glory and the knowledge of the Children of Iluvatar would have been diminished. As to casting Melkor into the void at the first hint of evil, apart from the obvious fact that some of the Valar though Melkor could be reformed, what makes you think that the Valar would have been able to do this. Melkor was the greatest of the Ainur in the beginning, until he spent his strength in hatred. Also, although an Arda free from evil is all well and good, it's not the sort of place you really want to read about, is it? -Voronwë "voyaging the Dark behind the world, a glimmering and fugitive star."</p>
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"If you would be a real seeker after truth, you must at least once in your life doubt, as far as possible, all things." -- René Descartes |
12-27-2000, 01:52 PM | #8 |
Spirit of Mist
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 396</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Re: Did the Valar make a huge mistake? The Valar's "decision" to "abandon" Middle Earth cannot be considered separately from the Summons to the elves. After Morgoth assaulted the Lamps, the Valar: (1) worked to prevent Middle Earth from coming apart; (2) retreated, regrouped and fortified their new dwelling in Valinor; and (3) forebore attacking Morgoth because the coming of the elves was expected. The decision to abandon Middle Earth did nor really occur until the Valar (hastily) assaulted Utumno and Summoned the elves. Their other option would have been to return to Middle Earth, in whole or in part, and tutor the elves in the lands where they belonged. This decision may not have been "preordained" by the Music. In Morgoth's Ring, there is a brief discussion held between Manwe and Iluvatar in which Eru questions the wisdom of summoning the elves to dwell in Valinor. Would the elves have faded faster? Why? Men had not yet come. Would they have been less glorious? Perhaps. But some may have voluntarily gone to Valinor, others would have been taught by the Valar, and Middle Earth would have been the better for it, having both the elves and greater attention from the Valar. The decision of the Valar could be characterized as selfish and lazy. Valinor was beautiful, they wanted the elves to live there and fixing up Middle Earth would have been a lot of work. A recurring theme in JRRT's work is the "Fall", i.e. the failure of individuals or whole races to live up to their potential, to follow the right path, or to attempt to be other than they should be. Examples: the marring of Feanor; the rebellion of the Noldor; the fall of Numenor; the corruption of Saruman; the withering of Denethor; and even Frodo's failure to cast the Ring into Orodruin. The result of such a "fall" is always disasterous to the persons involved. The Valar's failure to take up the reins of the governance of Middle Earth and leave the elves where they belonged was such a fall; one which wove the history of the following three ages. (Religious connotations are unavoidable here I guess but it is not my intent to turn this into a discussion on theology) Alternatively, could this "fall" (if it was one and I obviously think it was) have been attributable to Arda Marred? Were even the Valar affected by Morgoth's infusion of his power into the world? --Mithadan-- "The Silmarils with living light were kindled clear, and waxing bright shone like stars that in the North above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
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12-28-2000, 12:36 PM | #9 |
Gruesome Spectre
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 24</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Re: Did the Valar make a huge mistake? A primary reason for the Summons is obviously selfish. The Valar wanted the companionship of the elves,and to have students they could teach. I don't think it was coincidence that those were also Aule's reasons for making the Dwarves. But there may have been another reasoning involved. Besides their obvious physical and mental gifts,the one thing that sets the elves apart from all others in ME is their immortality. Perhaps in was only in a Deathless Land,Valinor,that elves could truly be happy and avoid some potential problems. Living forever in an enviroment that does not could be a curse. Boredom and elitism could ensue,which could have caused the elves to become cruel and exert dominance over other races. This attitude is hinted at with Saeros of Doriath,and his obvious contempt for men. It is even evident in Thingol to an extent. Maybe elves really didn't belong in ME. But of course if they had all answered the Summons,or if the Noldor had not returned,Men and Dwarves would not have had the benifit of their teaching,and I think would have become servants of Morgoth. Maybe the Valar made the wrong decision for the right reasons. Or maybe they,as all creatures,simply acted as the One designed. <center> We're all part of a Masterplan</center> </p>
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01-02-2001, 06:56 PM | #10 |
Spirit of Mist
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<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 430</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Re: Did the Valar make a huge mistake? Or maybe they were merely selfish and Eru would have wanted the elves to stay in Middle earth. Only when men arose did the earth and its creatures begin to age more quickly. The elven influence could have "healed" some of the damage done by Morgoth (he was, after all in Mandos' custody). And if the tale proceeded with Morgoth being released and again rebelling and escaping to Middle Earth, the Valar might have followed promptly, rather than refusing to follow the exiled Noldor. Yes, its all "what if". But in JRRT's world, one "fall" is followed by inexorable consequences. --Mithadan-- "The Silmarils with living light were kindled clear, and waxing bright shone like stars that in the North above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
07-31-2002, 04:37 PM | #11 | |
The Kinslayer
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Did the Valar make a huge mistake?
You bet they did. Quote:
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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07-31-2002, 05:16 PM | #12 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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The text you quote was as the Valar debated going to war against Melkor, not the summoning of the Quendi to Valinor. After the Battle of the Powers, Melkor was imprisoned in Mandos -- the Valar's job was done. The Quendi were summoned, not because of Iluvatar's counsel to Manwe, but because... Quote:
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07-31-2002, 05:38 PM | #13 | ||
The Kinslayer
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The Valar themselves had forsaken ME, and it had many wounds which were the devise of Melkor. If the Quendi had stayed in ME they could have made ME a more beautiful place. The back point is that the Elves would have not learned from the Valar, but they would have grown as a race, as those of the Teleri that stayed. There would have been no Rebellion of the Noldor and the Majority of Men would have been treated better in the world.
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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07-31-2002, 09:51 PM | #14 | |||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ] |
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07-31-2002, 10:03 PM | #15 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Apr 2002
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It was fate. They would have come to the West in time anyway.
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Si vanwa na Romello vanwa Valimar!~*~ ~*~Now lost, lost to those from the East is Valimar! My LotR page |
07-31-2002, 10:28 PM | #16 | ||||||||
The Kinslayer
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This reminds of me of a passage in Morgoth's Ring: The 'Tale of Adanel' Quote:
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Oh, and when i refer to the Valar, i mean Manwe. I would hope that with Ulmo, things would have been very different indeed. [ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: Maédhros ]
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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07-31-2002, 11:50 PM | #17 | ||||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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08-01-2002, 07:32 AM | #18 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
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However, I suspect that I am approaching this question from a different perspective than the Professor, and that our two viewpoints are perhaps irreconcilable. (But I'm not changing mine. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] ) [ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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08-01-2002, 09:22 PM | #19 | ||
The Kinslayer
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First, I want to reiterate that when I refer to the Valar, I mean Manwë.
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My reasoning is this: If the Valar had not summoned the Quendi to ME, they would have been more involved teaching the Elves in ME and therefore helping to heal the wounds inflicted by Melkor. The elves would have grown in ability and wisdom by having that contact with the Valar. They would not be as "great" as the Caliquendi but would have been better than the Moriquendi. When Melkor had returned to ME, the Valar would have realised that the Elves could not defeat Morgoth by themselves and hopefully would have intervened a lot sooner, erasing great years of pain to both Elves and Men in ME. Quote:
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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12-19-2002, 04:43 AM | #20 | |
Deadnight Chanter
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
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12-19-2002, 01:00 PM | #21 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I think even more important than your points, HerenIstarion, are Tolkien's own, which are quoted above as well:
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I disagree a little with your take on the significance of the name change. Melkor was never 'officially' renamed Morgoth; it's more of a nickname that stuck. Though he was no longer counted a Vala, he never ceased being Melkor, and he was still afforded the free will and rights of his station in Middle-earth. |
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12-19-2002, 01:25 PM | #22 |
Wight
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Mistake? Paradise Lost?
I agree with the notion of the Valar making mistakes (eg, letting Melkor go) Like God, they may be all-good, but are they really all powerful. They could not cleanse Middle-Earth of all of Morgoth's hurt, and they wanted the Elves to live in the Light, and did not force them, too. There selfish desire for companions and pupils was I believe secondary. So, the intent was good. But Ulmo warned against it, and he was right. Although in the end most Elves must go to the Aman and away from "Mortal" Lands, it is wrong to bring people too close in contact with power far greater themselves. The same applies to Men in terms of association with the High Elves, and of living in Numenor in proximity to the Aman. But such unwisdom by the Valar is a believe destiny within the Music of Ainur.
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12-20-2002, 08:12 AM | #23 | |
Deadnight Chanter
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
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12-20-2002, 10:26 AM | #24 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Ah, I did not mean to be severe! And I didn't mean to dismiss your comments as unimportant. My apologies.
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12-21-2002, 02:11 AM | #25 |
Deadnight Chanter
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accepted too [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
12-22-2002, 04:59 PM | #26 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jul 2002
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No one seems to remeber the role of the Two Trees in this. ME had only the light of the stars, and the Valar summoned the Elves to live in the Light of the Trees, instead of the dark forests where they were more vulnerable (okay, its been said here about a dozen times, but the Trees are interwoven into that purpose)
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12-22-2002, 10:33 PM | #27 | |
The Kinslayer
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You do have a point with the pardon of Melkor by Manwë.
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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12-24-2002, 03:08 AM | #28 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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One more time I'll point to a portion of the quote: Quote:
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12-25-2002, 01:47 AM | #29 | |
The Kinslayer
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Not necessarily infallible.
From Morgoth's Ring: Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, The converse of Manwë and Eru Quote:
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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12-25-2002, 06:21 PM | #30 |
Fair and Cold
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In order to properly assess Manwë's character, you first have to remember that one can make mistakes knowingly and unknowingly. Based on that, I disagree with oblo when he writes that Manwë was infallible; at the same time, Manwë is shown as someone who would never do anything "naughty" on purpose.
Having said that, I would also like to state my personal belief that all of Manwë's actions, mistakes included, were all meant to be. This would include the summons, and the disastrous results that followed. Did Tolkien not write that evil and mistakes were all done toward the same final purpose of good (whether or not the doer of said deeds, Morgoth/Melkor for example, knew it) ? That's what I walked away from the Silmarillion with. [ December 25, 2002: Message edited by: Lush ]
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12-26-2002, 05:12 AM | #31 | ||
Seeker of the Straight Path
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I do not think the Fall/Doom of the Noldor was however a direct result of the summons, it was the result of listening to Morgoth which could/would have just as easily happened in M-E when he returned, and returned he would have, Noldor or not. Things were amplified in Aman for sure, but Feanor might still have been born [ or some great Noldo like him] who could have taken to much life out of his mother, etc...Yes there would have been no Silmarill's as we know them, but then the mind and hands of Feanor would have been busy at work at something. He would probably have clashed with Elwe himself! or Eol or been seduced perhaps more directly by Morgoth or Sauron upon Morgoth's return. Morgoth could/probably would still slay the Two Tree's bringing about his flight and return, etc... I seem to recall several regrets in the Silmarillion [or later HoME] but at 3am I am not going to be able to find them too easily, but what comes to mind [accurate or not] is a]Creating light only for Aman with the Two Trees [ Yavanna was at least upset by it]. Delaying the making of the war upon Morgoth [as quoted so aptly above by Maedhros] and the summoning [OK I did look it up [p.52-3 in my ballantine pb] Quote:
So it was fated [darkly] that it should happen and that much woe and great tales would be the result. [ December 26, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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12-26-2002, 03:34 PM | #32 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 16
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Now that I finally read the Silmarillion, I can put my two cents in. Curiously, my opinion after reading the book is the same as that of three days ago, when I just read the replies.
I don't think it mattered. Wasn't the reason the Valar summoned the Quendi to Aman to protect them from Morgoth/Melkor, and so they would learn and grow and be companions to the Valar and stuff? If Melkor was laready evil, then it stands to reason that there would have been a confrontation eventually, and the elves would have been involved. Also, maybe it (the summons) did more good than harm. If a confrontation was inevitable, than it was good that the elves were brought over the sea because when they returned, they were able to discern that Melkor was evil, and if they ahd stayed maybe all of them would have turned into orcs (not likely but possible) like some of the Moriquendi did. Think of how much different the confrontation would have been if the elves had not been so committed against Morgoth, and more of them had fallen to evil. Also, if the elves had not gone to Aman, they would not have come back wiser and able to instruct men. Therefore, more men would have fallen to Morgoth, maybe all of them.
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12-26-2002, 03:44 PM | #33 |
Haunting Spirit
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well i believe that they did not make a mistake. the elves were sentient beings and could make their own discion to stay or go. which they did. and it was all done with good intentions but as they say the road to he$% is paved with good intensions.
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All that is gold does not glitter, Not all that wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king. Bilbo Baggins Describing Aragorn Son of Arathorn Heir of Elendil,Elessar-Elfstone of his people |
04-19-2006, 04:23 PM | #34 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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It's very sad in my opinion that they could make such a mistake, and doom elves to dwindle their amazing traits. The failing of Men as well. But it is quite interesting that such a small mistake could affect three ages so hugely! Sorry if I sound like a newbie! Go to http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ght=lazy+valar I wish I knew how to hyperlink . |
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