LotR2-TTT-Seq08

[Essex]

back from my hols in sunny (???!!!***###) California.

re the cloaks - the three hunters were not hiding from the rohirrim. Indeed, this is EXACTLY as it was in the books. The rohirrim can be seen as going past the three hunters, ie not noticing them, in some way because of their cloaks, and only turned once Aragorn stated the line 'What news from the North' etc.

if you have a cloak - it won't really camoflauge you if your head an legs are peeking out too! hey, I've just realised - another bit of plot knicked by JK Rowling from tolkien - harry's cloak of invisibility!!!!

I still look in awe at how good the cloak camoflauge works so well as a boulder every time i see Frodo lift the cloak up.

I actually think that the 'eastern' baddies at the black gate costume's are too stylised. More for show then action - too 'formal' an attire to march to War on.

Ent draught scene - at least it's alluding to stuff from the books, as is the bombadil lines, so I don;t mind these bits.

when sam falls down the hill, this is only one of 2 places in the whole trilogy for me where the cgi looks really bad. the rock that sam is on looks like it's sitting infront of an old Doctor Who 70's Green Screen. (now the NEW doctor who - that's a different story!!!)

re the searchlight - areen't we told by tolkien (when sam wears the ring in mordor) that sauron's eye was continuosly searching around middle-earth for his Ring. So he's not omnipient and can't look in all places at the same time. we see this used as a plot devise in both book and movie later to help sam and frodo across the plains towards mount doom.

PS - regarding the gate - ill take another look - but the wood moving the gte open is acting as a LEVER - and therefore can move a large weight as required (i.e. why a wheel barrow works for example) - can't remember the exact physics but have a few books on it to back up my claims if required!!!!!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

re the cloaks - the three hunters were not hiding from the rohirrim. Indeed, this is EXACTLY as it was in the books. The rohirrim can be seen as going past the three hunters, ie not noticing them, in some way because of their cloaks, and only turned once Aragorn stated the line 'What news from the North' etc.

In the books, Strider suggests that they move off of the hilltop, where they would be more easily seen. Eomer almost rides over them until Aragorn stands and states what you posted. Later, when they discuss the apparent fate of the hobbits, I think that Aragorn uses that fact to cast some doubt, stating that Eomer almost rode past the Three Hunters in the light of day, and so consequently may not have seen the Hobbits.

re the searchlight - areen't we told by tolkien (when sam wears the ring in mordor) that sauron's eye was continuosly searching around middle-earth for his Ring. So he's not omnipient and can't look in all places at the same time. we see this used as a plot devise in both book and movie later to help sam and frodo across the plains towards mount doom.

But doesn't the searchlight Eye smack you as a bit too literal? Oh, right, it's PJ, and so subtle ain't in his vocabulary.

PS - regarding the gate - ill take another look - but the wood moving the gte open is acting as a LEVER - and therefore can move a large weight as required (i.e. why a wheel barrow works for example) - can't remember the exact physics but have a few books on it to back up my claims if required!!!!!

Bottom line first: The Black Gate did not open as I expected, was overcontrived and hokey and so took me out of the film. Regarding the physics of the Gate, I'm not going to go too far down that fanatical road, but it just seems a bit silly for the trolls to open something so large with such a small lever. This would be akin to opening a door with a stick that when in your hands was the diameter of a toothpick. And a wheelbarrow has the weight on the lever before the fulcrum. And my family has broken wooden wheelbarrow handles...

[Essex]

Originally Posted by alatar

In the books, Strider suggests that they move off of the hilltop, where they would be more easily seen. Eomer almost rides over them until Aragorn stands and states what you posted. Later, when they discuss the apparent fate of the hobbits, I think that Aragorn uses that fact to cast some doubt, stating that Eomer almost rode past the Three Hunters in the light of day, and so consequently may not have seen the Hobbits.

I think we're in agreement then.....

But doesn't the searchlight Eye smack you as a bit too literal? Oh, right, it's PJ, and so subtle ain't in his vocabulary.

We've been moaning about this for years it seems now. Yes it is very 'Literal' / not subtle - but I haven't really seen a working alternative from anyone yet. It's ok to citicise something, but what would you put in place instead of it?

Bottom line first: The Black Gate did not open as I expected, was overcontrived and hokey and so took me out of the film. Regarding the physics of the Gate, I'm not going to go too far down that fanatical road, but it just seems a bit silly for the trolls to open something so large with such a small lever. This would be akin to opening a door with a stick that when in your hands was the diameter of a toothpick.

I need to look at this scene again before I comment further.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

We've been moaning about this for years it seems now. Yes it is very 'Literal' / not subtle - but I haven't really seen a working alternative from anyone yet. It's ok to citicise something, but what would you put in place instead of it?

Agreed. It's easy for me (and others) to know what I don't want. It's just that after all of these years of thinking that Sauron was the the end-all be-all evil guy, he just looks so cheesy in RotK.

It'd be like if the Black Riders wore colored ascots.

[Essex]

I understand this. But maybe PJ was always gonna take a hit for this. How do you show an 'eye' roaming across the landscape looking for his Ring and spying on his enemies as Tolkien talks about.

I remember when I was a young kid and I was standing on the Prom in Satlhill near Galway, Ireland on my hols looking at all the stars in the sky. And I had an epiphany that light wasn't the fastest thing in the world at 186,000 miles per second, but Eyesight was. I made the mistake (and it wasn't cleared up for me for years) that when I was looking light years back in time my eyes were looking OUT at the stars, and reaching them instaneously rather than the years that light would take. Instead it is actually the light from the stars themselves hitting the back of my eye and my brain taking this data and forming an image for me.

So eyesight is not something like a 'searchlight' as people have called PJ's Sauron Eye. But what Tolkien gives us with the Eye of Sauron is almost a description of what I was naively thinking of as a kid. The scene at Parth Galen shows us this best, as Frodo looks out from the seat of seeing as her wears the Ring:

Then at last his gaze was held: wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he saw it: Barad-dûr, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him.
And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was. Amon Lhaw it touched. It glanced upon Tol Brandir he threw himself from the seat, crouching, covering his head with his grey hood.
He heard himself crying out: _Never, never!_Or was it: _Verily I come, I come to you_? He could not tell. Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: _Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring!_
The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between their piercing points, he writhed, tormented. Suddenly he was aware of himself again. Frodo, neither the Voice nor the Eye: free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so. He took the Ring off his finger. He was kneeling in clear sunlight before the high seat. A black shadow seemed to pass like an arm above him; it missed Amon Hen and groped out west, and faded.Then all the sky was clean and blue and birds sang in every tree.

So what Tolkien is doing here is almost describing the Eye as (to be honest) a searchlight for want of a better word, something that is SCANNING the land loooking for his Ring - how can you show this in the medium of film? I can't think of anything closer to this than a spot light - no matter how cheesy it may look.......

We could perhap have a shot of Sauron sitting on his throne suddenly looking out towards Amon Hen, the camera shooting out from barad dur, following his gaze. (This is how I first saw the scene as I read the book the first time) - But we know that Sauron has no physical form at this time, so if Jackson did something like this, he would be lambasted for not following Tolkien's story correctly.....

He can't win. (again......)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

So eyesight is not something like a 'searchlight' as people have called PJ's Sauron Eye.

He can't win. (again......)

I'm going to come back to this in RotK, but in brief I hate how the Eye pivots on an axis like a searchlight.

And PJ has already won. His films are successful, he got to remake King Kong, and nothing I say here can take any of that away.

Not that I'll ever let up...

[Essex]

Not that I'll ever let up...

And neither will eye (Sorry, I mean "I")

From Tolkien:

There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep.... It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him.

Sounds like a search light in some respects.........