Faramir's (and Boromir's) Dream

[Mithalwen]

I have always thought it interesting that the dream happened in time for Boromir to set off a long long time before Frodo did, and also the fact that "fate" celarly wanted Frodo and Faramir to meet and consequently was Boromir's insistence on going defying fate. It is a tricky question because Boromir's treachery and death was vital as things turned out for the success of the quest. Things surely would not have worked out so well if the events at Parth Galen had been different, and certainly if Frodo had met Boromir in the woods of Ithilien he would not have been allowed on his way.

I know I have posted about this in another thread but I have not the time now to search and link - but I will be interested to see what other comments this provokes.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I've always viewed the sender of the dreams to be Eru.
By then it was pretty clear that the Valar plan of sending
the Istari was insufficient, and to some extent counterproductive,
and I believe (in Letters?) it's said that gandalf was sent
back enhanced because the original Vala plan hadn't worked.
Since Faramir got most of the dreams it seems he was meant to
go, and while Boromir would probably have not let frodo go on,
if Faramir had been in the Fellowship it's less likely he would have
been tempted, and might even have gone with frodo at leats through
Ithilien.

[Sardy]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I have always thought it interesting that the dream happened in time for Boromir to set off a long long time before Frodo did...

To my mind, that points towards Gandalf as the purpetrator of the dream (rather than Elrond), as even though Frodo hadn't yet set off, Gandalf had certainly put into motion his forthcoming journey.

Balin999, I've just reread The Council of Elrond and don't see anything that overtly indicates that Gandalf (or Elrond) were surprised by the turnout. In fact, Gandalf specifically tells Frodo that he wasn't surprised by anything that happened, with the singular exception of Frodo (and Bilbo's) offer to take the Ring to Mt. Doom.

[Balin999]

Strange, somehow I remember Elrond saying that this council was not planned or at least that the people were not called together, but "by accident" came to Rivendell at the same time. At least Boromir and Gloin. But I may be wrong, of course.
And as for Eru being the "sender" of the dream, that would be worth a discussion, if entities like Eru do something like that. I don't think so, to be honest.

[Sardy]

Originally Posted by Balin999

And as for Eru being the "sender" of the dream, that would be worth a discussion, if entities like Eru do something like that. I don't think so, to be honest.

The thing that makes me think that Eru (or the Valar) were not responsible for the dream is that they seems to be taking a definite "hands-off" approach to Middle-earth (at least in the Third Age), and short of sending the Istari, don't want to actively affect its outcome...

[Thinlómien]

The most curious thing in the dream in my opinion is that Faramir sees it many (damn my memory) times and Boromir just once. The fact has always intrigued me. Maybe Faramir was more sensitive to the message? And did that actually hint that he should have been the one to go to Rivendell?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Sardy

To my mind, that points towards Gandalf as the purpetrator of the dream (rather than Elrond), as even though Frodo hadn't yet set off, Gandalf had certainly put into motion his forthcoming journey.

Not quite certain but if you look at the timeline events are working themselves out. I am not sure how long a period the dreams occured. Gandalf reached Hobbiton on 12th April. Boromir set out on July 4. Does it have to be a specifice entity sending the dream - could it be some kind of collective unconscious/synchronicity at work? However the original name of Gandalf "Olorin" connects him with dreams and visons,

[Boromir88]

I have to agree with Balin here and that it was Eru who sent these "dreams." And this is Tolkien playing with the idea of fate.

To my mind, that points towards Gandalf as the purpetrator of the dream (rather than Elrond), as even though Frodo hadn't yet set off, Gandalf had certainly put into motion his forthcoming journey.~Sardy

But the only problem with that is as stated Elrond and Gandalf didn't send out invitations to come see the new gift in Rivendell. Rivendell had been a place where all races and people came to seek council from the great Elrond, and this was no different. It was by chance that all these people came together at the same time to deliver their news and seek advice from Elrond.

Boromir had gone to Rivendell to get answers to the dream he and Faramir had. He couldn't understand it, and so he went to Elrond to ask what it meant. Then also to ask for council on the growing threat of Sauron and Gondor is getting beat back. So, it just doesn't seem likely to me that Elrond (or Gandalf) would send this dream. As they didn't do any sort of advertising for the Council of Elrond, all those who came showed up by chance to receive council.


Mithalwen raised an interesting question, on whether Faramir was the one "destined" to go, and Boromir's insistance screwed up fate. Rather interesting, never considered that before, but I still have to disagree with her.

I think it was destined for Frodo to meet Faramir AND Boromir. Because though they be brothers they are two totally different characters and personalities. If anything the Fellowship needed was strength. I mean they had an old man, a short dwarf, a singing elf, and 4 hobbits, the only one with a bit of muscle was Aragorn, without Boromir's added strength the Fellowship could not have made it through Caradhras, Moria, or Sarn Gebir. Could Faramir have provided this? I don't know, but the Fellowship needed strength to get them through the hardships, and Boromir provides that.

Also, what's important to consider is let's say Faramir and Boromir switch, they swap. Faramir goes to Rivendell and joins the Fellowship, Boromir stays back and defends his city. How grave would this be? Frodo running into Boromir alone in the woods as opposed to Faramir. Boromir capturing Frodo with no old man or wannabee king saying "tisk tisk Boromir, no no." How grave would that be? Na, I think that both brothers were meant to encounter the ring and Frodo, as they both have to face the test, one succeeds the other stumbles.

Not only that but I think Boromir was destined to meet Aragorn as well. I mean the Steward's son meeting the claimed to be King of his realm? Had Boromir stayed back he would have resisted Aragorn's claim to the throne and as we've seen before with Pelendur the Stewards had quite a bit of influence and power in deciding whethey they can relinquish their throne or not. But, in going to Rivendell, Boromir goes through many months with Aragorn, starts out a bit rocky, but in the end Boromir accepts Aragorn and bestows upon him to "Save his people."

The most curious thing in the dream in my opinion is that Faramir sees it many (damn my memory) times and Boromir just once. The fact has always intrigued me. Maybe Faramir was more sensitive to the message? And did that actually hint that he should have been the one to go to Rivendell?

The only thing that I can think of is the fact that Faramir had a deeper love for lore than Boromir. Boromir's only care was of ancient battles and heroic feets, Faramir loved to study much more and was a better student ( ). This dream had really nothing to do with Boromir's interests. I mean it wasn't about war or heroes, he didn't care for this "lore business" and so he didn't have it as many times as Faramir who loved that kind of stuff. That's the only thing I can think of however, there may be, and probably is more to it.

[Mithalwen]

HI-ing for and edit tomorrow - had a suden flash of insight

[Eönwë]

Haha! I've figured it out. It's Ulmo who sent the dream.

My reason for saying this: Who did Ulmo give successful advice to? Tuor. Who were Tuor's descendants? The Numenoreans. Of who does it say "the blood of Numenor ran" truer? Faramir. But Boromir still had some Nmenorean blood, so he still got the dream.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Some years ago, on a different board, I recall a long and heated debate about this very subject in which someone very stridently insisted that the dream HAD to come from Ulmo, because only Ulmo still cared enough about ME to remain involved in its affairs. This argument was supported by the person's contention that all prophetic dreams during LotR supposedly took place near water, so naturally, Ulmo would be the person who sent them. Some people accepted this as proof, others didn't. I didn't. Not that I don't believe that Ulmo COULD have sent it, but because I don't believe the other Valar were as totally uninvolved with ME as it would appear on a casual glance. In his battle with Shelob, Sam calls the name of Elbereth, is suddenly moved to call out to her for help in a language he doesn't even know, and in response, the light of the Phial blazes "like a star that leaping from the firmament sears the dark air with intolerable light," blinding Shelob so that recoils and finally retreats, giving Sam a last shot at her legs. And then there are the Eagles, which conveniently appear to show up when Gandalf, a servant of Manwe, needs them most. I suspect the Valar haven't totally withdrawn their interest, or their help; they only do so in moments of utmost need, and then as subtly as possible.

Personally, I have long thought that it's possible the dream came from Gandalf -- who was the Counsellor of Irmo, the Master of Dreams. He knew about the Sword That Was Broken, and where it dwelt, the fact that Elrond was a master of Lore, in whose house crucial matters were often taken in council (as with the White Council); he already knew about Isildur's Bane, as well as the importance of the Halfling; moreover, he had already performed the test on the Ring and told Frodo to head for Rivendell before Faramir and Boromir had the dream, which first came on the night before Sauron attacked Osgiliath on June 20th (according to Boromir's report to the Council). If Gandalf -- who, as the Maia Olorin, was responsible for giving helpful, if anonymous, visions to the Eldar of earlier ages -- was not the one who sent the dream, it might well have been Irmo, from whom he probably learned much about such matters. I certainly don't believe either of them were responsible for all such things in LotR (Frodo's dream of Gandalf imprisoned in Orthanc certainly didn't come from him, nor, I think, from Irmo), but the dream sent to Faramir and Boromir was so specific in what it revealed and so direct in to whom it went, I believe it was intended to help prompt the Gondorians to stop looking at the welfare and defense of Gondor alone, and start realizing that there was still a larger world outside her borders, in which important things were happening and of which they should be a part. No man is an island, as the saying goes, and Gondor under Denethor's rule was coming perilously close to becoming one, consoled by the thought (which Denethor promulgated) that if Gondor fell, so would the rest of ME. The dream, if one wants to think of it in political terms, was rather anti-isolationist, and attempting to unify the free peoples in the fight against Sauron was larger mission of the Istari.

Oh, my, that was quite a ramble. Blame it on new meds that make me so sleepy....