Relative Powers

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by drigel

Apples to apples it would be Sauron over Huan. Lordliness, skills over nature and technology, powers of command, etc.
Apples to oranges it would be Huan over Sauron. Put them both in the Thunderdome, one on one, and it would be Huan having the mastery, as it was related in the Silm. And thats with (IMO) Sauron having personal powers that far exceeded what he had in the 2nd or 3rd ages.

As I said in my last post... I disagree.

Huan had an advantage at the start of the fight that was not related to either his strength or Sauron's. I refer, of course, to Lúthien's cloak, which she brushed past him as he attacked. Furthermore, Sauron did not utilize his full abilities in battle, but rather changed form and attacked as a Werewolf, hoping to fulfill the prophecy about Huan.

Had Sauron attacked as himself, or maybe as an oliphaunt or something, the outcome could have been different. And, yes, the prophecy would have been nullified- but since Sauron DIDN'T, Huan went on to die at Carcharoth's jaws.

It's very analogous to the Witchking situation. Had Glorfindel and the Witchking fought during the fall of Arnor, it's entirely possible that the Witchking would have been destroyed then and there. But they didn't, so we are left with the "not by hand of man shall he fall"- which is, of course, what happens. But this does not mean that Glorfindel (or Eärnur, for that matter) COULDN'T have defeated the Witchking, but that they DIDN'T.

So, although I acknowledge the fact that Huan was a very impressive beast, and probably worth more than the Fëanorian lord he served, and that he was definitely a challenge for Sauron, I don't think that one-on-one he could have taken Sauron down. He needed Lúthien's help just as Lúthien needed his.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

blah blah blah

Actually, Formendacil, I agree with you (mostly--your excuses for Sauron are weak, in my opinion*) and I never suggested putting Huan above Sauron. All I said was that he was more powerful (by far) than the Witch-King. Sauron obviously belongs near the top of the Maiar bracket, and Huan somewhere amidst it or near its bottom--it's tough to say exactly. My points about Huan were just that 1) he was likely a Maia and 2) he was considered especially mighty on a First Age level which means he was mightier than nigh all that lived in the Third Age, excepting those other Maiar and maybe one or two Eldar. The same goes for Hurin and Turin. They were studs of First Age proportions.

Additionally, some Eldar ought to be inserted into a special bracket that places them parallel to the Maiar. Luthien was obviously exceptionally powerful, perhaps ranking among Olorin, Sauron, Melian, and Curumo. Glorfindel I would say was less powerful, though he could stand his ground against a Balrog and thus deserves to be ranked near them. Feanor, Galadriel, Finrod, Thingol, Finwe, Fingolfin and Finarfin (in approximately this order perhaps) should be placed only slightly below Luthien (who was the greatest of all the Children). You might add Olwe and Ingwe as well, except that we can only guess that their kingship was a result of a certain high degree of power on their part.

Here's an interesting thread (involving myself and Formendacil, incidentally) about power levels among the Umaiar.

*

Had Sauron attacked in his own form, or some other form, the outcome might have been very different.

What form of defense might Sauron have employed that did not include wizardry or spells, fangs or venom, devil's art or beast-strength?

Next, notice that Huan does not- or, I theorize, cannot- kill Sauron. Sauron cannot escape him without grave humiliation, but Huan does not kill him.

At this point in Sauron's existence, forcing him to abandon his shape is as close as anyone can get to 'killing' him. His spirit can only be truly destroyed by Eru, and he's not yet incarnate to the point of any sort of death being permanent.

but he could not elude the grip of Huan without forsaking his body utterly.

This makes it clear that the power Sauron could not elude was Huan's, not Luthien's. The next line is

ere his foul spirit left its dark house, Luthien came to him...

So his only option was to abandon his body (death) until Luthien provided him the opportunity to be released on the condition that he give his tower to her.

[drigel]

nice points!

I understand the point of Luthien's contributions, but I also think that Sauron's tactics were employed to instill fear, and not with the knowledge that he had to assume a certain form in order to slay the hound. I submit that he had no knowlege of, or took little heed to, the prophecy concerning Huan. And certainly had no (or little) knowlage Huan's nature:

....no wizardry or spell, neither fang nor venom, nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor

until well into the fight. That means no fear in Huan of Sauron's manifistations or magic in my book.

I still lean towards the hound, but would place Sauron above him in the master list, if that makes sense. But that's just me, I suppose. I would argue that Huan was a greater agent (handling much higher stakes) for Eru than Gandalf was.

Had Glorfindel and the Witchking fought during the fall of Arnor, it's entirely possible that the Witchking would have been destroyed then and there.

Who is to say that he didnt have the chance to, but avoided the confrontation? I would think in all those years, he must have had a shot or two.