orcs and goblins- what's the difference??? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Valier · 03-30-2006, 10:08 AM

I always thought that Goblins were sort of a cave dwelling Orc. The are smaller, faster, can climb up walls. In the movies they attack the fellowship in Moria am I correct? They seem to have larger eyes as well to see better in the dim light. Ors seem larger,dumber and mostly in the service of the bad guys. The Goblins seem to do their own thing.

Aiwendil · 03-30-2006, 10:26 AM

Neither goblins nor orcs ever climbed up walls in anything Tolkien wrote.

It's interesting to hear people's opinions, but can anyone actually provide evidence suggesting that "orc" and "goblin" are not synonyms? All that I can think of is the quote about "hobgoblins and orcs of the worst description", which might (possibly) suggest that there is a distinction, at the least, between hobgoblins and orcs - though it's quite hard to say, as the word "hobgoblin" is not used elsewhere by Tolkien, as far as I can recall.

I think that, at the very most, the distinction is a loose, "racial" one. I don't think there's any doubt that the Great Goblin, Azog, Grishnakh, Ugluk, and the rest belong to a single class of creatures called yrch.

Thinlómien · 03-30-2006, 10:27 AM

I wouldn't say that goblins are cleverer than orcs! On the contrary. Orcs were mightier beings in intelligence too, or so I believe.

Morsul the Dark · 03-30-2006, 04:29 PM

yes but when have you heard of an orc quoting history

the goblin king in fact knows the history behind bilbo's sword(so do his followers)

Orcs only ask about how good sport hobbits give

Orcs in my opinion resemble neanderthals they have a chief and live in packs while goblins are more feudal with a king and im willing to bet a better knack at inventing(they live in caves...deep in caves)one can assume theyre excellent trap makers for food while orcs chase down their food(although wherew all the food comes from is still a mystery

also one last thing Saruman's uruks can ride wargs as can goblins but ive never heard of orcs riding them. one can only assume the uruks knowledge of this craft came from their goblin predecessors

deal_with_it · 03-30-2006, 04:51 PM

I'd always thought they were the same in Tolkiens world, just depended upon which race was speaking. I did at one point get the impression during the Chase across Rohan chapters that the Moria orcs were smaller than the Mordor orcs and that maybe the goblins were simply the smaller version.

But honestly I just thought that dwarves and hobbits called them goblins and elves and Men called them orcs, but they were the same.

I may be off on that, but its what I gathered.

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp
Goblins, The race of Orcs
Dates: First appeared soon after the Awakening of the Elves; apparently still extant
Origins: Made by Melkor
Race: Orcs
Meaning: Probably originally related to kobolds, spirits said to dwell in mines1
Other Names: Glamhoth, Orcs, Yrch

A name almost synonymous with Orcs. There is some debate about how closely the the two terms are related to one another, and indeed it could be argued that they both effectively relate to the same thing.

The following quote from the foreword to The Hobbit sheds some light on this: "[The word 'Orc'] occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds.)' The fact that the larger kinds are given their own special word might suggest that goblins tend to be smaller Orcs, but the evidence on this point is inconclusive.

The word 'goblin' is also used occasionally and indiscriminately in The Lord of the Rings; it never occurs in the The Silmarillion.

Notes
1 The relationship of 'goblin' to 'kobold' is a theory proposed by the Oxford English Dictionary, which suggests the following derivation (we've taken the liberty of expanding their standard abbreviations):

'Middle English, probably from Anglo-French *gobelin, medieval Latin gobelinus, probably from name diminutive of Gobel, related to Kobold'

The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English
In fact, there are at least two other theories. The first concerns two medieval parties, the Guelphs and the Ghibellines. The Guelphs were supposed to have despised their rival Ghibellines so much that their name became a 'bogey' word, and ultimately evolved into modern 'goblin'. The Ghibellines despised the Guelphs in equal measure, and so their name, too, apparently descended to modern times as 'elf'. Ingenious and economical as this theory is, it is almost certainly wrong.

A somewhat more plausible idea relates goblins back to the almost-forgotten fairy figure of Ghob, the King of the Gnomes. In Old English, the earth-spirits who followed him might well have been referred to as Ghoblings, and this gives us a third possible source of the name, somewhat older than the other two.

Thalion · 03-31-2006, 01:58 PM

Orcs and Goblins are the same thing...

Tolkien changed the word in LOTR because the Hobbit was written for children who would need a reference to what he was talking about...but when it came time to write the LOTR, he used Orc because he didn't want readers to have that "fairy-tale" misconception about his goblins being little hob-goblin, trickster type characters...he wanted more of an understanding that they were a perversion of Elves and evil, foul things; the word Goblin does not portray that because it already had been used much in fairie before The Hobbit and people had preconceptions as to what Goblins were...

While it may be easy to think of Orcs as bigger, badder and meaner than smaller Goblins, they are in fact the same creatures, only described just slightly differnetly in the LOTR and the Hobbit because the latter was written for children...(additionally, the Hobbit was written first and Tolkien hadn't incorporated all of his previous ideas concerning Middle Earth into it yet)

deal_with_it · 03-31-2006, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalion

Orcs and Goblins are the same thing...

Tolkien changed the word in LOTR because the Hobbit was written for children who would need a reference to what he was talking about...but when it came time to write the LOTR, he used Orc because he didn't want readers to have that "fairy-tale" misconception about his goblins being little hob-goblin, trickster type characters...he wanted more of an understanding that they were a perversion of Elves and evil, foul things; the word Goblin does not portray that because it already had been used much in fairie before The Hobbit and people had preconceptions as to what Goblins were...

While it may be easy to think of Orcs as bigger, badder and meaner than smaller Goblins, they are in fact the same creatures, only described just slightly differnetly in the LOTR and the Hobbit because the latter was written for children...(additionally, the Hobbit was written first and Tolkien hadn't incorporated all of his previous ideas concerning Middle Earth into it yet)

Yeah thats true, Being for kids, thats probably why the dwarves were so wimpy and there wasn't much in the way of battle scenes

Elu Ancalime · 03-31-2006, 02:40 PM

And because of this name switch, some physical elements were implimented. Everytime in The Hobbit when orcs are dealt with, they are orcs of the mountains, ie goblins. So as we know Saurons Uruks were developed more than this survivors of the Second and First age, these older divisions would appear as stouter and more "elvish" in a sense. Also, in a general non-Tolkien aspect, when one thinks of goblin, they usualy think of a smaller creature, right? (um, right?) While Uruks of Mordor and Isenguard are more Mannish and Humanoid.
________
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Himilsillion · 03-31-2006, 04:48 PM

I always thought that the goblins and orcs were the same basic creature. The difference between orcs and goblins is more of a lifestyle difference rather than a physical difference. Orcs my seem bigger and stronger because Sauron wants them to be so they are better in fighters. It seems to me that goblins are orcs that are not completely governed by Sauron. They have their own system of government and can choose what reasons to fight this group or another. Orcs on the other hand don't govern themselves and listen to Sauron and his allies.

Thalion · 03-31-2006, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Himilsillion

I always thought that the goblins and orcs were the same basic creature. The difference between orcs and goblins is more of a lifestyle difference rather than a physical difference. Orcs my seem bigger and stronger because Sauron wants them to be so they are better in fighters. It seems to me that goblins are orcs that are not completely governed by Sauron. They have their own system of government and can choose what reasons to fight this group or another. Orcs on the other hand don't govern themselves and listen to Sauron and his allies.

Since all Orcs/Goblins are perversions of Elves by Morgoth for the sole purpose of doing his bidding in mockery of Elves, I don't see how Orcs/Goblins would have come to NOT listen to their master, as we have no evidence throughout any of the works that this would have occured

Kuruharan · 03-31-2006, 06:13 PM

Quote:

There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands.

-The Departure of Boromir

The term "goblin-soldiers" was applied to Saurman's Uruk-hai. I think that proves as much as anything possibly could that the terms "orc" and "goblin" were synonymous as far as Tolkien's world goes.

deal_with_it · 03-31-2006, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalion

Since all Orcs/Goblins are perversions of Elves by Morgoth for the sole purpose of doing his bidding in mockery of Elves, I don't see how Orcs/Goblins would have come to NOT listen to their master, as we have no evidence throughout any of the works that this would have occured

What was the Great Goblin that recognized Orcrist and Glamdring? Thats as about as close as I saw in his works to a Goblin (orc) king, other than Bolg who led the Goblin Army in the Battle of Five Armies, but Bolg was just the leader (or the strongest goblin), not necessarily a king. Is that right?

03-30-2006, 10:08 AM	#1
Valier Twisted Taleswapper Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: somewhere between sanity and insanity Posts: 1,706	I always thought that Goblins were sort of a cave dwelling Orc. The are smaller, faster, can climb up walls. In the movies they attack the fellowship in Moria am I correct? They seem to have larger eyes as well to see better in the dim light. Ors seem larger,dumber and mostly in the service of the bad guys. The Goblins seem to do their own thing. __________________ grand return?........

03-30-2006, 10:27 AM	#3
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	I wouldn't say that goblins are cleverer than orcs! On the contrary. Orcs were mightier beings in intelligence too, or so I believe. __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

03-30-2006, 04:29 PM	#4
Morsul the Dark Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,448	yes but when have you heard of an orc quoting history the goblin king in fact knows the history behind bilbo's sword(so do his followers) Orcs only ask about how good sport hobbits give Orcs in my opinion resemble neanderthals they have a chief and live in packs while goblins are more feudal with a king and im willing to bet a better knack at inventing(they live in caves...deep in caves)one can assume theyre excellent trap makers for food while orcs chase down their food(although wherew all the food comes from is still a mystery also one last thing Saruman's uruks can ride wargs as can goblins but ive never heard of orcs riding them. one can only assume the uruks knowledge of this craft came from their goblin predecessors __________________ Morsul the Resurrected

03-31-2006, 01:58 PM	#6
Thalion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Tol Morwen Posts: 82	Orcs and Goblins are the same thing... Tolkien changed the word in LOTR because the Hobbit was written for children who would need a reference to what he was talking about...but when it came time to write the LOTR, he used Orc because he didn't want readers to have that "fairy-tale" misconception about his goblins being little hob-goblin, trickster type characters...he wanted more of an understanding that they were a perversion of Elves and evil, foul things; the word Goblin does not portray that because it already had been used much in fairie before The Hobbit and people had preconceptions as to what Goblins were... While it may be easy to think of Orcs as bigger, badder and meaner than smaller Goblins, they are in fact the same creatures, only described just slightly differnetly in the LOTR and the Hobbit because the latter was written for children...(additionally, the Hobbit was written first and Tolkien hadn't incorporated all of his previous ideas concerning Middle Earth into it yet) __________________ "But a new day is come. Here I will stay at peace, and renounce name and kin; and so I will put my shadow behind me, or at the least not lay it upon those that I love."

03-31-2006, 02:40 PM	#8
Elu Ancalime Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Anador Posts: 476	And because of this name switch, some physical elements were implimented. Everytime in The Hobbit when orcs are dealt with, they are orcs of the mountains, ie goblins. So as we know Saurons Uruks were developed more than this survivors of the Second and First age, these older divisions would appear as stouter and more "elvish" in a sense. Also, in a general non-Tolkien aspect, when one thinks of goblin, they usualy think of a smaller creature, right? (um, right?) While Uruks of Mordor and Isenguard are more Mannish and Humanoid. ________ Human Papillomavirus (Hpv) Advice Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 11:34 PM.

03-30-2006, 10:26 AM	#2
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Neither goblins nor orcs ever climbed up walls in anything Tolkien wrote. It's interesting to hear people's opinions, but can anyone actually provide evidence suggesting that "orc" and "goblin" are not synonyms? All that I can think of is the quote about "hobgoblins and orcs of the worst description", which might (possibly) suggest that there is a distinction, at the least, between hobgoblins and orcs - though it's quite hard to say, as the word "hobgoblin" is not used elsewhere by Tolkien, as far as I can recall. I think that, at the very most, the distinction is a loose, "racial" one. I don't think there's any doubt that the Great Goblin, Azog, Grishnakh, Ugluk, and the rest belong to a single class of creatures called yrch.

03-30-2006, 04:51 PM	#5
deal_with_it Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 42	I'd always thought they were the same in Tolkiens world, just depended upon which race was speaking. I did at one point get the impression during the Chase across Rohan chapters that the Moria orcs were smaller than the Mordor orcs and that maybe the goblins were simply the smaller version. But honestly I just thought that dwarves and hobbits called them goblins and elves and Men called them orcs, but they were the same. I may be off on that, but its what I gathered. http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp Goblins, The race of Orcs Dates: First appeared soon after the Awakening of the Elves; apparently still extant Origins: Made by Melkor Race: Orcs Meaning: Probably originally related to kobolds, spirits said to dwell in mines1 Other Names: Glamhoth, Orcs, Yrch A name almost synonymous with Orcs. There is some debate about how closely the the two terms are related to one another, and indeed it could be argued that they both effectively relate to the same thing. The following quote from the foreword to The Hobbit sheds some light on this: "[The word 'Orc'] occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds.)' The fact that the larger kinds are given their own special word might suggest that goblins tend to be smaller Orcs, but the evidence on this point is inconclusive. The word 'goblin' is also used occasionally and indiscriminately in The Lord of the Rings; it never occurs in the The Silmarillion. Notes 1 The relationship of 'goblin' to 'kobold' is a theory proposed by the Oxford English Dictionary, which suggests the following derivation (we've taken the liberty of expanding their standard abbreviations): 'Middle English, probably from Anglo-French *gobelin, medieval Latin gobelinus, probably from name diminutive of Gobel, related to Kobold' The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English In fact, there are at least two other theories. The first concerns two medieval parties, the Guelphs and the Ghibellines. The Guelphs were supposed to have despised their rival Ghibellines so much that their name became a 'bogey' word, and ultimately evolved into modern 'goblin'. The Ghibellines despised the Guelphs in equal measure, and so their name, too, apparently descended to modern times as 'elf'. Ingenious and economical as this theory is, it is almost certainly wrong. A somewhat more plausible idea relates goblins back to the almost-forgotten fairy figure of Ghob, the King of the Gnomes. In Old English, the earth-spirits who followed him might well have been referred to as Ghoblings, and this gives us a third possible source of the name, somewhat older than the other two.

03-31-2006, 04:48 PM	#9
Himilsillion Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: In Sweet Home Chicago Posts: 30	I always thought that the goblins and orcs were the same basic creature. The difference between orcs and goblins is more of a lifestyle difference rather than a physical difference. Orcs my seem bigger and stronger because Sauron wants them to be so they are better in fighters. It seems to me that goblins are orcs that are not completely governed by Sauron. They have their own system of government and can choose what reasons to fight this group or another. Orcs on the other hand don't govern themselves and listen to Sauron and his allies. __________________ Elwood: It's 106 miles to Chicago. We got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes; it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses. Jake: Hit it!