Orcseys - always Evil?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I had this discussion with a friend of mine recently, it is one that often comes up and is very difficult without the books on hand. I cannot find it even with them, but I seem to recall a place where, I think it is either Shagrat and Gorbag or the Orc Tracker and his friend (when Frodo and Sam are hiding in the bushes) that says something along the lines of;
"I wish we could go away from all this war and have a peaceful life with no big bosses around."
You'll have to confirm my quotation, as I cannot find it.

This suggested to me, at first, that, given the chance, Orcs would go forth and live out good lives where they had nothing to fear. But Reading the Silmarillion brought something to my mind. This in particular:

Originally Posted by Tollers

Wolves there were, or creatures that walked in wolf shapes, and other fell beings of shadow; and amongst them were the Orcs, who afterwards wrought ruin in Beleriand: yet they were few and wary, and did but smell out the ways of the land, awaiting the return of their Lord.
The Silmarillion: Chapter 15 - Of the Sindar

To me, this suggested that the Orcs are somewhat lost without their lord to guide them to do evil. Looking at how they moved through the forests after the fall of Boromir would suggest that they would delight in trampling all living things even if it were not in their way.

This is a big assumption, I suppose. It seems that violence is in their nature as it were, in the same way that the love of gold is in the nature of Dwarves. Yet, I would say that, from Tolkien's words that they are not 'incurable' just as Gimli was, in a way, cured of his gold lust. "Your hands shall run with gold, yet over you, gold shall have no dominion." I would guess that it is plausible, then, that the Orcs could be 'cured' of their violent ways if given the opportunity.

I can't comment with any authority on the subject, but I would guess that after the fall of Sauron, the Orcs probably tried to find somewhere to go to live out lives without big bosses. Then again, one could look at the goblins in the Misty Mountains (From The Hobbit) and, indeed, Moria. They had no links with Sauron that is mentioned, so one can only assume that they went under their own leadership, in a way. But then once again, you could argue that at the time of The Hobbit, Sauron was still prudent as The Necromancer in Mirkwood and his influence may have even been amongst them, or at least the fear of his return.

Just a thought.

[Gothmog]

To comment both SpM's and Hookbill's posts; I don't know if Orcs had their own fea but I do think that they had some sort of free will, judging by the way they sometimes talk about their masters. I can't confirm Hookbill's quote, but I'm sure I've heard orcs talk negative about their masters, and if they were under total control, this would be impossible for them. Also, it happens that the orcs are driven away and flee before an overwhelming enemy. If Sauron, or Morgoth, could control them fully, they would fight until the last drop of black goblin blood. This shows some sort of free mind and maybe some sort of soul?

Their behaviour, with destroying all living things for the fun of it as one part, can be both nature and nurture-related. We know too little about the orcs' development and their "education" to say something about this, really...

I'm leaning more to the view of an orc with some sort of soul, but with a partly inherited "evil". Though it is possible for this creature to redeem itself turn it's back to it's origin, it would be hard. But much of the evil of warrior orcs comes from their training and treatment when their younger and from that, a hatred to all things arises.

I know that it seems as if Tolkien meant the orcs to be soulless killing machines in some texts, but the way he portays them that doesn't seem to fit.

And yes SpM, the dog-lion comparison isn't totally applicable.

The first thing we need to decide is: is orcs' minds free? Next thing: how much of their evil is inherited? Only after answering these questions (and probably more that I've forgotten right now), we'll find an answer to this problem...

[The 1,000 Reader]

Looking at the orcs in LOTR, I believe that there is a chance, though small. They aren't completely dull, yet they are prone to scatter as if they were ants.

[Thinlómien]

Hmm... Didn't Tolkien say in the Letters that orcs represent all that is bad in human race? And said some people to be the orcs of modern days? I think - though a bit irrelevant matter - might point to some orcish free will.

Tolkien believed that humans have free will, right? Then (in my logic) also those Tolkien's "modern orcs" (= badly behaving humans) have free will and why should they be compared to orcs if orcs haven't some sort of free will? If orcs were bound to do the "evil" deeds they did how could they be compared to humans who have free will? It would be the same as comparing a person that is physically forced to kill a human to a murderer who decides to kill someone. (A bad example, I know. I hope you got my point.)

If orcs have some sort of free will, I think they would be able to "behave" in a human society. If they don't, then obviously not.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

If orcs have some sort of free will, I think they would be able to "behave" in a human society. If they don't, then obviously not.

It depends really how much store you set by this statement in Tolkien's Letters (quoted above by Sharkû via Son of Númenor):

They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad.

I read from this that evil is the natural state for an Orc, something that is an essential part of the Orc's nature and which the Orc itself is unable to change. Accordingly, I would instead say that they have limited free will. Their choices will always be limited by their natural impulse to evil.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I read from this that evil is the natural state for an Orc, something that is an essential part of the Orc's nature and which the Orc itself is unable to change. Accordingly, I would instead say that they have limited free will. Their choices will always be limited by their natural impulse to evil.

Sounds quite depressing... At least for the orcs.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Sounds quite depressing... At least for the orcs.

Indeed. As I have said, I have major philosophical difficulties with the idea of a race of beings that are evil by their very nature, through no choice or fault of their own. An Orc is evil simply by virtue of being born an Orc. He or she has no choice in the matter. And that does seem terribly unfair.

I think Tolkien recognised this. Hence his later thoughts which envisioned Orcs as soulless beasts rather than sentient beings. I am not sure that this necessarily solves the problem, though, as they are still living things that suffer by virtue of their naturally evil state, whether or not they have souls.

But is it any less depressing to regard Orcs as being capable of repentance and/or redemption? As being capable of being “cured” of their evil state? I am not so sure that it is, given that there is no suggestion in any of Tolkien’s writings that this ever actually occurred. Indeed, they seem to be regarded by those on the side of good as being naturally evil and incapable of redemption or repentance, whether or not this is the case. The treatment of Orcs, for example, is in marked contrast to the treatment of those Men who served evil, such as the Dunlendings, whose gripe against Rohan is given some justification and with whom the Rohirrim are seen to be reconciled following the battle of Helm’s Deep, and the Haradrim, for whom some sympathy is engendered in Sam’s musings upon the fallen warrior in Ithilien. Orcs are never regarded through the same sympathetic eyes and nor are they ever shown any mercy by those on the side of good.

The fact is that, even if they were not evil by their very nature, the chances of an Orc ever being “reformed” are extremely slim. Their appearance, their temperaments, their reputation, the nature of the societies into which they are born (or spawned ) and their likely upbringing all mitigate so severely against their likely rehabilitation as to make the chances of it ever happening virtually nil. Which is little better, in practical terms, than being “irredeemably” evil.