Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[narfforc]

Best of luck Alatar with your attempts at getting your hands on a freebie copy of the games, I have always found the best way is to borrow it from someone, and then forget who lent it to me, pleading ignorance when my irate ex-friend turns up at my door purple-faced and talking in a foreign language full off four letter words. Once you have got hold of one of the games, I hope you do enjoy them, playing as Gandalf the White is good, you get to call for Shadowfax and charge into battle. I destroyed The Witch-King with the beam from his staff, the one you see in the film, this is called The Light of the Istari, however I killed Gandalf by continually landing on his head whilst riding my fell-beast, now why didn't Peter Jackson think off that instead of that silly grovelling scene, ummm......

Originally Posted by narfforc

Best of luck Alatar with your attempts at getting your hands on a freebie copy of the games, I have always found the best way is to borrow it from someone, and then forget who lent it to me, pleading ignorance when my irate ex-friend turns up at my door purple-faced and talking in a foreign language full off four letter words. Once you have got hold of one of the games, I hope you do enjoy them, playing as Gandalf the White is good, you get to call for Shadowfax and charge into battle. I destroyed The Witch-King with the beam from his staff, the one you see in the film, this is called The Light of the Istari, however I killed Gandalf by continually landing on his head whilst riding my fell-beast, now why didn't Peter Jackson think off that instead of that silly grovelling scene, ummm......

The above statements are irrelevant to this thread. If you wanted to discuss these games, try all those idiots on the online format of the game.

One thing I wanted to clear up was - why did Sauron give the WK an added demonic force? Was it to prevent the upgraded Gandalf from making the current WK looking like an overrated lowly adversary, to destroy Gandalf, or just to scare off anyone else (e.g. Aragorn) who dared challenge him in his attempt to capture Minas Tirith? I think it was the former or the latter of these, but not the middle ground. Afterall, Sauron doesn't even have his Ring, so just how much power could he afford to suck out of him & onto his servant? Not enough power to destroy Gandalf I think!

[Trotter]

Hey,

This particular scene had me yelling at the TV in unspeakable rage when I first saw it! I cannot fathom why this scene was portrayed as it was. PJ's excuses don't do it for me. Fact is, (all arguements about Gandalf's and WK's power aside) it was a weak scene that served no purpose when it could have been a strong scene that was full of it! It is a sad thing indeed, for had this scene been filmed the way that Tolkien wrote it, it could have been one of the most dramatic scenes in the film.

[narfforc]

I am saddened for I thought on this website someones likes or ways would not be disparaged. It seems that after reading Tolkien for 35yrs and having a library of over 300 books on the subject, if I play the odd game then I am irrelevent, Alatar and I have been linked with 'all those idiots, then I obviously cannot have any say. The fact that our light-hearted comments have been taken out of context this way saddens me, this thread has gone round and round, duplicating the same arguments over and over, for what harm our comments made to it, I am sorry, however as there is no forum for these games on this website, and maybe, just maybe others (that is people who are not you), could have wanted to know of these video games, and as they are linked to the movies visually, well that is why the subject arose.



All that is written is not clever
All who play games are not daft
If you think your way for ever
Maybe it's at you next could be laughed.


P.S Thank you Mansun for your humane understanding of other peoples pass-times, whatever you do don't let on that you train spot, do flower arranging or read silly fairy stories, you know how the morons will class you an idiot for having a hobby other than theirs.

Originally Posted by narfforc

P.S Thank you Mansun for your humane understanding of other peoples pass-times, whatever you do don't let on that you train spot, do flower arranging or read silly fairy stories, you know how the morons will class you an idiot for having a hobby other than theirs.

It is no coincidence then that I share the same hobby as you, as I own BFME I & II, as well as the Fellowship of the Ring, Return of the King, & the War of the Ring. However, these games should not be discussed here - there are PLENTY of games forums & online chat rooms available (including on the games themselves). And I said idiots as a slang term, not an insult - something that probably better refers to the younger generation of gamers like me & many others.

The reason why this thread does get more than its fair share of comments (sometimes repeated albeit) is because it is a highly contraversial scene in the movie, & EVERYONE is entitled to discuss this scene regardless of how exhausted the topic may seem to get to you, particularly those who are new to the Barrow Downs, or those who may want to find answers to different angles of the topic.

[Essex]

Mansun,

read the line "The fact that our light-hearted comments have been taken out of context "

they were having a laugh.

Luckily, we can have a laugh on this forum - a well as having serious inepth discussions (as we have done esp on this thread) - so they were not irrelevant.

To me if someone comes up with a reason why gandalf is stronger than the WK from the game of the movie, it's JUST as relevant as someone else saying 'but Gandalf was stronger than the Witch King' from reading the books as we have no proof of this in this matter, as everything on this matter is CIRCUMSTANTIAL at best.

I though it was funny anyway guys!!!!

Originally Posted by Essex

Mansun,

read the line "The fact that our light-hearted comments have been taken out of context "

they were having a laugh.

Luckily, we can have a laugh on this forum - a well as having serious inepth discussions (as we have done esp on this thread) - so they were not irrelevant.

To me if someone comes up with a reason why gandalf is stronger than the WK from the game of the movie, it's JUST as relevant as someone else saying 'but Gandalf was stronger than the Witch King' from reading the books as we have no proof of this in this matter, as everything on this matter is CIRCUMSTANTIAL at best.

I though it was funny anyway guys!!!!

They were not taken out of context - they were in the wrong context from the start. As I said before, there are other places to have a laugh about the games. This thread is about the movies - WK laughs . . . .

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

The above statements are irrelevant to this thread.

Mayhap is, mayhap not. My point, besides a tongue-in-cheek attempt to get someone to buy me not only the Middle Earth video game but some super cool hardware, was to show that, possibly, there was a way to glean more information about the Gandalf versus Witch-King debate. Having formerly been a scientist, or at least having played on TV, I tend to see the world in a particular way. I would like to see Gandalf (book or movie) square off against the Witch-King, and see what happens (note that I would prefer to have control over as many variables as possible in an attempt to rule out other factors affecting the contest, like roosters, Rohan and Pip). Maybe run the event 10 times to make sure of the results. However, whether the books or the movie, I cannot do this as it is a one time event - it happened, no data, that's it - and so was looking for another way.

Hence the game post.

Now, it's possible that the game programmers know nothing of Tolkien , and care nothing about the maia or man's ranking in Arda. So Gandalf could win or lose on any given play. Ted Sandyman may or may not be able to best the Balrog, and Rosie Cotton could give Galadriel fits. In that case, there would be no information. We'd be back shouting across the trenches.

If the programmers assigned some type of ranking to the characters so that the most probable outcome were that some creatures would almost always best others (again, single combat, no other help, etc), then we would like to find out why they ranked said characters higher than others. Was it whim, the programmer's personal feelings (i.e. if it were me, Gandalf would be able to whoop three Witch-Kings with one staff tied behind his back), or was some guidance/information provided by some outside source? Was this source linked to the Tolkien estate or to Peter Jackson/WETA/New Line? If so, then there is new information available that would help us in this discussion. Can we get that information? I'm not sure. Someone might be able to get hold of a programmer/spokesperson for the game and see if s/he can help. I volunteered to use my analytical skills with the game to see what I could find out. I didn't think that purchasing the game myself was ethical, as..., well, I'll get back to you on that one .

So, you see that, though I used a chirpy tone, I actually had a serious question in my original post, which I will restate: Do the games, based on the Peter Jackson movies, contain any new information regarding the Gandalf versus Witch-King debate? Right now, as we have none, any information would be something other than forum members' opinions.

And by the by, anyone who wants to get a real taste of my in-depth serious dissertation-style posting tone, well, stop by the SbS.

If you wanted to discuss these games, try all those idiots on the online format of the game.

I did, and though I read the walkthrough for the Gandalf on the Wall of Minas Tirith level (of the EA Return of the King video game), I still can't finish that level. That then puts me a level or two below idiot, and I would wholeheartedly agree - I used to be so good at games, then I got slow. Tis surely a shame.

Originally Posted by Essex

Come the World War III, with a few of us lucky (or unlucky) ones sitting in our nuclear bunkers or under a mountain, we will still be here arguing whether Gandalf was stronger than the Witch King...

I can see some supervillian in the future's sole goal, not to take over the world but to get the last word, once and for all, in the Gandalf versus Witch-King debate.

Cape or no cape?

[narfforc]

Yeh I was gonna say that Alatar.....................................

Originally Posted by alatar

Mayhap is, mayhap not. My point, besides a tongue-in-cheek attempt to get someone to buy me not only the Middle Earth video game but some super cool hardware, was to show that, possibly, there was a way to glean more information about the Gandalf versus Witch-King debate. Having formerly been a scientist, or at least having played on TV, I tend to see the world in a particular way. I would like to see Gandalf (book or movie) square off against the Witch-King, and see what happens (note that I would prefer to have control over as many variables as possible in an attempt to rule out other factors affecting the contest, like roosters, Rohan and Pip). Maybe run the event 10 times to make sure of the results. However, whether the books or the movie, I cannot do this as it is a one time event - it happened, no data, that's it - and so was looking for another way.

Hence the game post.

Now, it's possible that the game programmers know nothing of Tolkien , and care nothing about the maia or man's ranking in Arda. So Gandalf could win or lose on any given play. Ted Sandyman may or may not be able to best the Balrog, and Rosie Cotton could give Galadriel fits. In that case, there would be no information. We'd be back shouting across the trenches.

If the programmers assigned some type of ranking to the characters so that the most probable outcome were that some creatures would almost always best others (again, single combat, no other help, etc), then we would like to find out why they ranked said characters higher than others. Was it whim, the programmer's personal feelings (i.e. if it were me, Gandalf would be able to whoop three Witch-Kings with one staff tied behind his back), or was some guidance/information provided by some outside source? Was this source linked to the Tolkien estate or to Peter Jackson/WETA/New Line? If so, then there is new information available that would help us in this discussion. Can we get that information? I'm not sure. Someone might be able to get hold of a programmer/spokesperson for the game and see if s/he can help. I volunteered to use my analytical skills with the game to see what I could find out. I didn't think that purchasing the game myself was ethical, as..., well, I'll get back to you on that one .

So, you see that, though I used a chirpy tone, I actually had a serious question in my original post, which I will restate: Do the games, based on the Peter Jackson movies, contain any new information regarding the Gandalf versus Witch-King debate? Right now, as we have none, any information would be something other than forum members' opinions.

And by the by, anyone who wants to get a real taste of my in-depth serious dissertation-style posting tone, well, stop by the SbS.



I did, and though I read the walkthrough for the Gandalf on the Wall of Minas Tirith level (of the EA Return of the King video game), I still can't finish that level. That then puts me a level or two below idiot, and I would wholeheartedly agree - I used to be so good at games, then I got slow. Tis surely a shame.



I can see some supervillian in the future's sole goal, not to take over the world but to get the last word, once and for all, in the Gandalf versus Witch-King debate.

Cape or no cape?

Lets get back to the main theme of the thread, the titanic confrontation between Gandalf vs WK which promised so much but delivered so little in the ROTK, rather than turning it into a Punch & Judy thread.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Lets get back to the main theme of the thread, the titanic confrontation between Gandalf vs WK which promised so much but delivered so little in the ROTK, rather than turning it into a Punch & Judy thread.

The movie messed up. The incident in the book is essential. Gandalf turns from the confrontation with Angmar in order to save Faramir. He does the right thing, because he is the only one who can save Faramir. It is an act of trust in Eru, that in the end a good act will be rewarded. Frodo makes the same choice with Gollum if you think about it. Gandalf rejects the belief that the end justifies the means, that it would be ok to let Faramir be killed in order to win the battle. To desert Faramir would have been immoral. Gandalf had no choice if he was to stay true to himself & what he was fighting for.

Originally Posted by davem

The movie messed up. The incident in the book is essential. Gandalf turns from the confrontation with Angmar in order to save Faramir. He does the right thing, because he is the only one who can save Faramir. It is an act of trust in Eru, that in the end a good act will be rewarded. Frodo makes the same choice with Gollum if you think about it. Gandalf rejects the belief that the end justifies the means, that it would be ok to let Faramir be killed in order to win the battle. To desert Faramir would have been immoral. Gandalf had no choice if he was to stay true to himself & what he was fighting for.

True, but in the book Gandalf was all too aware that the WK could not only kill more people if he was not confronted, he could even bring ruin on Minas Tirith itself since knobody else at the time had the courage to challenge him. If Gandalf had gone on to challenge the WK, it may have been that Theoden would have still lived, & by Gandalf halting the domination of the WK on the battlefield, that in itself would have at least given the soldiers of Gondor & Rohan more belief that victory was still possible. I would therefore not have blamed Gandalf for going after the WK in this situation, as Gandalf could not have just relied on hoping that a prophecy would avail. A prophecy is just that - it is a prediction & not necessarily a means to an end.

The film however does not really make out that the WK is critical to the success of Mordor, aside from being the General. If Gandalf had taken him out, Mordor would still have been well in charge of the battle of the Pelennor fields.

[Essex]

as DaveM said, Gandalf took the moral choice (as I pointed out about 6 months or so, but great minds think alike Dave, LOL!)

Mansun, if Gandalf had gone after the Witch King and defeated him (sending him packing, but not killing him as the Propehcy foretold) - then Middle-earth would have been lost....

Refer to my earlier posts on this - this thread is a very good read but I'm afraid it's mostly all been said before...........

[The 1,000 Reader]

In the end, there was no clear advantage to any side, none backed down or quivered in their boots, and they were both pulled away from the fight before it could start. In the end, it's best to look at it like a battle of equals. Enough said.