Relative Powers

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Eonwe

I take it you have regected my analysis of data? Thou stick in the mud!

No. I'm holding on to it for more consideration.

LMP, are you dealing with these entities as people, or people groups? Are 'Ents', 'Goblins', 'Hobbits', and 'Elves', waiting to be fleshed out, or are you planing to keep them that way?

Individuals may be extracted from people groups.

Because I don't think you really can. Balrogs come in all different shapes and sizes. Same for pretty much ever other race. I realize that will make your job allot harder. Or are you shooting for a more general overview of a certain race?

More general, but specified as much as is not unwieldy. I'm wondering about pulling apart the Eldar into their various people groups?

Please do recall, Elu, that this is not just "battles". This is the physical, psychic, and spiritual aspects of each individual & people group, as described by Tolkien.

[Elu Ancalime]

Ah, right. Powers implied in my head made me thing of turnbased RPG.
________
Weed vaporizers

[Mister Underhill]

I've always thought this sort of "power" hierarchy is a red herring. Put rock, scissors, and paper in a hierarchy... see what I mean? Sauron's will beats Orcs, Orcish muscle beats hobbits, hobbit fortitude beats Sauron. If you need a snappy rhyme in a hurry, a Spider is a better bet than an Ent, but if you need to roust a wizard, talk to Treebeard.

What do you measure? Denethor has the power to set armies in motion with a command, but Legolas could put an arrow through his eye. Which is more "powerful"? If it's a good home-cooked meal you want, forget them both and see Sam. Which is a more accurate measure of power: the sheer magical force that Gandalf could project, or the wisdom which guided his decisions?

The problem with this sort of list is that it does seem to evoke a videogame mentality -- you start comparing Gandalf and Saruman's mana points, or Aragorn's armor class vs. Boromir's armor class.

If you're talking Middle-earth Fight Club, there are still a few kinks to be worked out. Sauron pre-Ring, Sauron with Ring, and Sauron the giant flaming eyeball are all different animals. Same with Sauron on the battlefield vs. Sauron the insidious court advisor vs. Sauron the commander-in-chief.

Anyway. I've lodged my complaint. Carry on with the list-making.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Child grumbles and then begins to jump up and down in an agitated fashion, waving her hands in the air......

Littlemanpoet

Stop!

I know what RPG you are talking about, but Mr. Underhill is right. You can't do this. Well, of course, you can, but I mean the whole idea of making such a list runs counter to the message and spirit of Tolkien. Everything in LotR makes me realize that, at any given instant in time, the tables can be turned and someone from the bottom of the list can defeat someone higher up. What that means is that the list has no real meaning.

If Hobbits are listed number 167 (or whatever they are), then how come Frodo managed to outwit Sauron and destroy the Ring? How could Samwise possibly have defeated a gigantic spider, which should have had him for lunch? There are dozens of examples like this, involving races other than hobbits, but I am too lazy to list them all out.

P.S. f you really want to continue with this enterprise, I believe you've left Galadriel off your list....

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by lmp

Lalwendë, there is enough in the quoted text to include Ungoliant in the list. The "it is said" bit is a classic Tolkienism that is used to suggest legend and folklore rather than feigned history. Therefore, I'm going to go with the feigned history. One of the presuppositions for this thread is that there is no being that is independent of the creation of Eru.

I'm all for worms, fisticuffs, well made points, and corrections backed by evidence to this list. But it being my list, I will make decisions now and then to end certain points of debate, as I did above regarding Ungoliant. It was a very good effort, Lal, but doomed, as it butted its head up against an immutabilty.

Hey, is this a democracy or a dictatorship?

I still say that there are elements in Tolkien's work that defy all attempts to be 'classified', and I think Tolkien intended it that way. One of the essential aspects of Faerie is that it is enigmatic and we cannot fully grasp what it means or how it works, and Tolkien's world works in the same way. Characters such as Ungoliant, Tom Bombadil and Goldberry are outside the logical world order, even that of Ea.

In fact, the layering of older drafts upon later drafts and the use of characters and situations which defy even religious (in terms of Eruist) logic help create the very essence of magic and faerie which is conveyed by Tolkien's work. Of course, the human urge (and even more so in the case of the Tolkienists' urge) is to classify and order everything, but sometimes we can't and we might have to accept some things that don't make us feel comfortable that this whole world is ordered by Eru.

The early version of Ungoliant from the Big Ungoliant Thread .

[Thinlómien]

I do agree the list is a bit weird thing to do. But I thnk the power should be measured in how much did/could the individual affect the world. Or that at least has been my unofficial guideline. That can be used for all my reasoning.

[Earendilyon]

lmp,

the Wiki is the WitchKing.

I can't agree on Gollum being more powerful than a typical Orc.

IIRC, The Hobbit tells us, that Gollum once and a while ate some stray Orcs.

[Lalaith]

Mr Underhill's paper/scissor/stone analogy also occurred to me.
And Child is right too - where *is* Galadriel?