The Hobbit - Chapter 08 - Flies and Spiders - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Raynor · 03-08-2006, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Sorry, but there's no evidence that Ungoliant ever left Beleriand.

I disagree:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Of the flight of the noldor

...and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world, her offspring abode there and wove their hideous webs.

which is in accordance with the Lay of Earendil, HoME II (reffered to by wikipedia above), The Quenta, HoME IV:

Quote:

To his aid came the Orcs and Balrogs that lived yet in the lowest places of Angband. With their whips of flame the Balrogs smote the webs asunder, but Ungoliant was driven away into the uttermost South, where she long dwelt.

and The Tale of Sun and Moon, HoME II:

Quote:

Now Manwe designed the course of the ship of light to be between the East and West, for Melko held the North and Ungweliant the South

Formendacil · 03-09-2006, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raynor

I disagree:

Perhaps an oversimplification on my part. Or a mis-memory.

The part pertinent to what I was saying is that there is no evidence that Ungoliant ever dwelt in Mirkwood or the surrounding locales.

Of course, I could make the case that "south" could still refer to Beleriand, since we are not informed exactly how far in that direction it extended, nor how far Ungoliant really went, but I shan't. I concede the point.

Formendacil · 03-12-2006, 03:42 PM

Diving in for a more thorough overall look at this chapter- and doing it before the posting of the next one, for a miracle- I have to say that it's never been a particular favourite of mine.

Not that it isn't well-CRAFTED. Tolkien does an excellent job of simultaneously moving the plot along and letting the reader feel the passage of time. Moreso than any other chapter in this book, I really feel the days pile up, and yet Tolkien never quite falls into the trap of over-describing the boredom.

On this note, one of the most vivid moments in this chapter, in my mind, is the "Butterfly Incident", when Bilbo (poor, scared-of-heights, Bilbo) climbs up the great tree, and gets a glimpse of the warm sun, and green treetops of summer, and the fluttering butterflies, and ascends temporarily from the gloom of his day-to-day life.

All the same, I sympathise a great deal with Bilbo in this chapter, getting progressively more hungry and more lost. Perhaps I sympathise too much, and that's why I don't like the chapter too much. Perhaps I'm too fond of Bilbo. If so, then kudos to the author!

Thinlómien · 03-13-2006, 08:47 AM

The songs on this chapter are really funny. I loved them when TH was read aloud to me and I find them amusing even nowadays 10 or 11 years later...

Faramir Jones · 10-08-2008, 12:22 PM

I was discussing the Mirkwood spiders, and about them being descendants of Shelob, at the recent Oxonmoot. I remembered that Tolkien, in this chapter, never makes any mention of the spiders' genders, not even using references like 'he' or 'she' when they speak.

This makes perfect sense in terms of the story being told from Bilbo's point of view. He was busy trying to save himself and his friends, and not interested in which of the spiders he fought and killed were boy or girl ones.

03-12-2006, 03:42 PM	#3
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,328	Diving in for a more thorough overall look at this chapter- and doing it before the posting of the next one, for a miracle- I have to say that it's never been a particular favourite of mine. Not that it isn't well-CRAFTED. Tolkien does an excellent job of simultaneously moving the plot along and letting the reader feel the passage of time. Moreso than any other chapter in this book, I really feel the days pile up, and yet Tolkien never quite falls into the trap of over-describing the boredom. On this note, one of the most vivid moments in this chapter, in my mind, is the "Butterfly Incident", when Bilbo (poor, scared-of-heights, Bilbo) climbs up the great tree, and gets a glimpse of the warm sun, and green treetops of summer, and the fluttering butterflies, and ascends temporarily from the gloom of his day-to-day life. All the same, I sympathise a great deal with Bilbo in this chapter, getting progressively more hungry and more lost. Perhaps I sympathise too much, and that's why I don't like the chapter too much. Perhaps I'm too fond of Bilbo. If so, then kudos to the author! __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.

03-13-2006, 08:47 AM	#4
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	The songs on this chapter are really funny. I loved them when TH was read aloud to me and I find them amusing even nowadays 10 or 11 years later... __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

10-08-2008, 12:22 PM	#5
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	Spiders' genders not mentioned I was discussing the Mirkwood spiders, and about them being descendants of Shelob, at the recent Oxonmoot. I remembered that Tolkien, in this chapter, never makes any mention of the spiders' genders, not even using references like 'he' or 'she' when they speak. This makes perfect sense in terms of the story being told from Bilbo's point of view. He was busy trying to save himself and his friends, and not interested in which of the spiders he fought and killed were boy or girl ones.