Speaking of a Silly Poll

[Lalwendë]

Hmmm...apparently you subscribe to the school of warfare that holds one should fight one's wars with an eye toward making happy and accommodating one's enemies. I'm afraid I don't agree with that.

I don't get how you infer this. I am simply asking whether it is right to keep a large population of people in such a situation.

The way you talk about her implies too much nobility to her motives. To hear you speak, it almost sounds like you think she was some brave political activist engaged in a life-and-death struggle attempting to overthrow the cruel regime of Comrade Stalgon. This was not the case at all. She was a silly, empty-headed little nitwit who had no higher aspiration than to go a-Maying at the most inopportune moments.

If only it was so interesting. Alas, Aredhel is simply doing what someone would have wanted to do anyway. 100% loyalty can never be expected, and there will always be someone who wants out. It is one of the first principles of management that you should never expect everyone to always follow the agenda, because people just aren't like that. You have to plan for that eventuality and Turgon did not. Or perhaps it was a cath-22 situation from the beginning, as let someone leave and you risk them revealing the location of the place but keep them in and they could foster revolt.

Maybe Turgon did not know his sister all that well, as she had been accustomed to hunting and riding with Feanor's sons while in Valinor. If he had considered this he may have discouraged her from joining them. Even so, its likely someone else would have wanted to leave. That's just life.

The security of Gondolin meant that there was nothing to assess. Some things are non-negotiable. Turgon politely informed Eol of this at the beginning. Try to think of it as Turgon extending a courtesy rather than giving an order.

Simply by not assessing the situation he increased the risk factor for Gondolin. It's not always clever to be inflexible.

[Kuruharan]

I don't get how you infer this.

I infer this from…

The very existence of a place which he cannot find must have made Morgoth even more determined to find and destroy the place, and when he does find it, he brings all his might to bear on it.

Eru forbid that Turgon actually go so far as to annoy Morgoth. It might make Morgoth angry and we wouldn’t want that.

I am simply asking whether it is right to keep a large population of people in such a situation.

Under the circumstances, why not?

Alas, Aredhel is simply doing what someone would have wanted to do anyway.

Odd, we don’t hear about anybody except for her…

100% loyalty can never be expected, and there will always be someone who wants out. It is one of the first principles of management that you should never expect everyone to always follow the agenda, because people just aren't like that.

This doesn’t mean you have to kow-tow to the 1% of malcontents who are causing trouble for no particular benefit to anybody but themselves.

You have to plan for that eventuality and Turgon did not.

The plan was probably to say, “No.”

If he had considered this he may have discouraged her from joining them.

Maybe he tried to but she pouted and whined and wanted to go. It probably seemed like a great adventure at the time.

That's just life.

Odd, I would say the exact same thing to Aredhel.

Simply by not assessing the situation he increased the risk factor for Gondolin. It's not always clever to be inflexible.

What was there to assess? As I have said a number of times before Eol=Security Risk. Security=Prime Consideration, especially because of the trouble the first breach caused.

[Thinlómien]

Or maybe Aredhel was no nitwit or hero, it was just her fate to leave the city and meet Eol etc.?

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Turgon made the hard calls. His heart may have said otherwise, but, as it was a cold but nuclear war with Morgoth, he had to slay Eol.

And use his attack against Maeglin which killed Aredhel as a reason also? This leads to an interesting question; did Elves use capital punishment?

[Kuruharan]

The situation suggests they did. However, I wouldn't think they used it a lot.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

The situation suggests they did. However, I wouldn't think they used it a lot.

Or maybe some elves did and some didn't? Can you think of any other death sentence cases among elves?

And I just started to ponder, if capital punishment was a heavier or a lighter punishment for elves than for men?