Gollum and Eagles: Deux ex machina?

[Nogrod]

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QUOTE=alatar]Isn't the deus ex machina (used in Greek plays) the fall into Sammath Naur, in regards to Gollum? Don't some believe that it's the hand of Eru who gives him the nudge over the edge?

You just cling in to the point! And the question, whether Tolkien was just making a fatalistic decision, or found a way to ease Frodo up, remains...

Gollum, though old, decimated, starving, tortured in mind and body, still goes after the Ring. He plays both sides, good and evil, and even has two personalities, but what joins them is the chaos.

There are enough of mythologies to make this point. Like the Norwegian "Ginnungagap", there is the idea of chaos everywhere, as the starting position. The Babylonians' had the same story...

Ah chaos. Gollum could play either side, and more likely neither side, as he was neither good nor evil, but somewhat unique. The dice were tumbling, and how will they land?

But he really played a part! He was not a chance creature in the story, but an integral part of the whole history. He couldn't play "either side", but was destined to play the role he had to! He had no choice, as well as Frodo had no choice! They were all pawns at a greater play, which Tolkien had in his mind, creating this fatalistic universe of his?

EDIT: Cross-posted with Firefoot

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

You just cling in to the point! And the question, whether Tolkien was just making a fatalistic decision, or found a way to ease Frodo up, remains...

There are enough of mythologies to make this point. Like the Norwegian "Ginnungagap", there is the idea of chaos everywhere, as the starting position. The Babylonians' had the same story...

Sorry, but I'm just not getting your meaning, as sometimes my brain gets scrambled.

But he really played a part! He was not a chance creature in the story, but an integral part of the whole history. He couldn't play "either side", but was destined to play the role he had to! He had no choice, as well as Frodo had no choice! They were all pawns at a greater play, which Tolkien had in his mind, creating this fatalistic universe of his?

Again not exactly sure what you mean. The grass under their feet in Parth Galen, too, played a part, and also wasn't chance creations, I guess, from some perspective. And in regards to fatalism, if I understand you, Tolkien the author can make his marionettes dance higgity-piggity as he wishes (unlike myself who quickly loses control over whatever I start to write...like most of my posts ), but the characters therein, like us, think that they have free will.

Everyone has choices. I'm too tired for a butterfly effect world, as that's a bit silly, but I think that we and Frodo could and can decide our fates. Frodo could have let another stand forth at Rivendell, and then we'd be discussing the Eagles saving Chuck and Tom. Or, as Lush may prefer, Rosie and Daisy.

Or, in another view, Frodo made the choice to throw the Ring away along the journey, and shortly thereafter the Ring is recovered and sometime later, the everlasting Darkness covers all who could not flee. Now, assuming ME is our 'history,' this did not happen as we wouldn't be here. Or, it did, but not in this universe, as again we still have Sam and Frodo.

Have I muddled things enough?

[Nogrod]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by alatar

Sorry, but I'm just not getting your meaning, as sometimes my brain gets scrambled.

Everyone has choices. I'm too tired for a butterfly effect world, as that's a bit silly, but I think that we and Frodo could and can decide our fates.

Well, you can think it in many ways! It's not basically an argument to say that you think we can make choices to deal with our lives! You have no grounds on the question, "why", here!

You can put it in two ways; either we have the chance, or then we do not.

The first case can be put in a way, that there is something or someone, that has to choose the actions or whatever it might be. Another way to look at that, is to say, you can justify your choises' (etc.) at the face of a fortune, or a world as such, by which you have to do one thing or another.

Or then one just is a piece in the play we call the world, acting, along the lines one is supposed to act, after the chemical and biological ways we've built with. Or then we are just quantum machines, going about quite randomly, but without a clear pattern. Or then with a one?...

So just saying, I think (therefore I am - what a common sense nonsense!) , is not enough?

Sorry to make this harder as it should be...

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

In the end what we think is immaterial. The point is that Tolkien thought that this world is one in which we have the freedom to choose our actions and that we are personally responsible for them. For Tolkien, each decision really does come down to a moral choice for good or ill, and without that structure his mythology and his novels make no sense. Moreover it would be extremely odd for a Christian to believe that we are simply automatons performing predetermined actions in a random and meaningless universe.

However we might view the primary world, Tolkien's sub-created universe is one with a creator, a supreme being who is the source of good. This benificent presence gives meaning to Tolkien's universe, and the presence of evil within that universe introduces the necessity for moral choice and individual moral responsibility. Many of the workings of Arda make no sense whatsoever when divorced from this structure. Now, the supreme being may sometimes intervene, directly or indirectly, but Tolkien always forces his characters to decide their own actions for themselves.

In the case of Frodo, we do actually have Tolkien's word for it that he could never have resisted the temptation of the Ring in the final crisis. Thus the conclusion of his quest presents a moral lesson about his tolerance and mercy toward Gollum. If Frodo and Sam had killed him, as it was only logical and sensible to do, then he would have been unable through his final treachery to save Frodo from the domination of the Ring. Essentially, Frodo has the opportunity to decide whether he is to destroy the Ring and complete his mission or to claim it as his own and be destroyed, but his will has been overcome. He is no longer able to make the decision for himself, but the outcome of his earlier decisions has been to bring the means of his salvation with him. All in all this does not overturn the basic premise that Frodo possesses free will within the context of Tolkien's fiction (which is the only context in which he exists in any case). Perhaps someone who has access to their books will be able to give the location of Tolkien's reflections in his published letters.

Before I was sidetracked down this philosophical path, I meant to point out that the Eagles as a deus ex machina were also discussed in Flaws in Lord of the Rings... Yes in the book., which is also still open. There were some nice reflections there from Kalimac among others. There's also a thread called The Great Eagle Mystery, which immediately sprang to mind when I saw this discussion. These may be of help on this matter, and I certainly make more valuable contributions in the former thread than I have here. If you wanted the lyrics to albums by the Eagles, you should look at this site.

[Raynor]

Now, the supreme being may sometimes intervene, directly or indirectly, but Tolkien always forces his characters to decide their own actions for themselves.

Well, there are some notable exceptions; concerning 'active intervention':

Originally Posted by The shadow of the past, FotR

- Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was _meant_to find the Ring, and _not_ by its maker. In which case you also were _meant_to have it
...
- Why did it come to me? Why was I chosen?
- Such questions cannot be answered,’ said Gandalf. ‘You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess: not for power or wisdom, at any rate. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have

Originally Posted by Three is a company

The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned with the ways of hobbits, or of any other creatures upon earth. Our paths cross theirs seldom, by chance or purpose. In this meeting there may be more than chance; but the purpose is not clear to me, and I fear to say too much

Originally Posted by Council of Elrond

That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say. though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world
...
At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.
- I will take the Ring, he said, though I do not know the way.

Originally Posted by The breaking of the fellowship

- I wonder? said Aragorn. He is the Bearer, and the fate of the Burden is on him. I do not think that it is our part to drive him one way or the other. Nor do I think that we should succeed, if we tried. There are other powers at work far stronger.

[I also think that when foretelling is involved, it rules out free will to a certain extent; and some beings have a special doom ahead of them, such Earendil, Tuor, Thingol or Beren; Luthien is also moved by doom to Beren and their union is stated to part of the divine plan (cf letter #153)]

[alatar]

Reading Raynor's post made me think about the fact that as a species (and I would extrapolate this to our elven cousins) we have the ability and desire to see patterns. This ability yields a clear survival advantage.

Three dwarves walk singly into the East-gate of Moria, pre-Balin colony days. Each one walks in, I hear some noise, then I hear "Durin's Bane is upon us!" then "Argh!" The dwarf fails to come back out. By the third one I'm convinced that entering Moria is not warranted at this time.

Also, when one arrogant elf would rise each morning, he would note that shortly thereafter the sun would appear in the eastern sky. He concluded that his rising caused the Sun to rise also. Obviously.

My point (do I have one ?) is that we have no idea if Gildor Inglorion, Elrond and Gandalf, were, shall we say, simply blowing smoke.

I was meant to type this post, and some of you knew that .

[Raynor]

By the third one I'm convinced that entering Moria is not warranted at this time

That is, if you are not a dwarf - they seem to like going in a row into a trap .

when one arrogant elf would rise each morning

I am sure you meant a drunk elf.

we have no idea if Gildor Inglorion, Elrond and Gandalf, were, shall we say, simply blowing smoke.

I would give more credit to the greatest of lore-masters and the wisest of the maiar.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I would give more credit to the greatest of lore-masters and the wisest of the maiar.

But they could have an agenda (instilling the 'Eru exists' theory into the hobbits) or simply be delusional.