ahh. Women in M-E again... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

03-04-2002, 06:17 AM

ha! i bet this topic has be chewed on for ages, but... well, perhaps it's new.

has anyone noticed how women gradually slip into the story? i just reread the hobbit, and good grace, he thrice mentions women: when they leave Lake-Town, when tey talk about widows of fallen human soldiers, and the Tookish nieces...
in LotR, there are already a few women around... and in the Silmarillion, there are some, too. (not many, but nevertheless. they got character and don't just do what's been said to them). in the Unfinished Tales we get to know that the people of Haleth (besides being lead by a women) also have Amazon like warriors, ant that Tolkien seemed to plan a major change in the story of the Silmarillion in order to emphasize the character of Galadriel (who was to become almost equal to Fëanor...)

can it be that's Tolkien's picture of women changed [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]?
i'm just asking...

edit: i admit, i've never read the History of Middle Earth, but i guess most of the things done by female characters were included in later revisions. or am i wrong?

[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Thranic ]

Aralaithiel · 03-04-2002, 04:37 PM

Interesting theory...must go munch on it for awhile!
Wilkkomen to the Downs! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Lush · 03-04-2002, 04:39 PM

This is all very interesting. Any Tolkien scholar wish to say anything? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

obloquy · 03-04-2002, 07:34 PM

Interesting theory? I can't even tell what the theory is.

By the way, "Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years."

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 03-04-2002, 07:51 PM

obloquoy! Been a while! Where have you been?

I believe the theory is Tolkien's view of women changed (from the time he wrote the LotR till the time he wrote the Silm.?), therefore women play a larger role in his later works. Either that, or in revision.

As it happens, the Silmarillion was written before the LotR, it just wasn't published until much later. The increased role of women in the Silm. I think has more to do with the vast span of time it covers. Statistical probability.

Welcome to the Downs, Thranic.

[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

obloquy · 03-04-2002, 08:21 PM

I've been here, Maril. Posting in other, generally Balrog-related threads. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I don't see any reason to believe Tolkien's opinion of women changed. From what to what, exactly? They seem to me to be consistently strong-willed, intelligent, and noble.

Maybe I'm still not getting it.

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 03-04-2002, 08:52 PM

Oh dear, I'm too hard-headed to actually discuss whether Balrogs hae wings or no.

I think he's referring to an increased presence rather than a change in characterization.

Thranic, how say you?

Aralaithiel · 03-04-2002, 09:54 PM

I believe you are onto something there, Maril! That's the theory I was looking for!
Ayalambo! [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

03-04-2002, 06:17 AM	#1
Thranic Guest Posts: n/a	ahh. Women in M-E again... ha! i bet this topic has be chewed on for ages, but... well, perhaps it's new. has anyone noticed how women gradually slip into the story? i just reread the hobbit, and good grace, he thrice mentions women: when they leave Lake-Town, when tey talk about widows of fallen human soldiers, and the Tookish nieces... in LotR, there are already a few women around... and in the Silmarillion, there are some, too. (not many, but nevertheless. they got character and don't just do what's been said to them). in the Unfinished Tales we get to know that the people of Haleth (besides being lead by a women) also have Amazon like warriors, ant that Tolkien seemed to plan a major change in the story of the Silmarillion in order to emphasize the character of Galadriel (who was to become almost equal to Fëanor...) can it be that's Tolkien's picture of women changed [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]? i'm just asking... edit: i admit, i've never read the History of Middle Earth, but i guess most of the things done by female characters were included in later revisions. or am i wrong? [ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Thranic ]

03-04-2002, 04:37 PM	#2
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	Interesting theory...must go munch on it for awhile! Wilkkomen to the Downs! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

03-04-2002, 04:39 PM	#3
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	This is all very interesting. Any Tolkien scholar wish to say anything? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

03-04-2002, 07:51 PM	#5
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	obloquoy! Been a while! Where have you been? I believe the theory is Tolkien's view of women changed (from the time he wrote the LotR till the time he wrote the Silm.?), therefore women play a larger role in his later works. Either that, or in revision. As it happens, the Silmarillion was written before the LotR, it just wasn't published until much later. The increased role of women in the Silm. I think has more to do with the vast span of time it covers. Statistical probability. Welcome to the Downs, Thranic. [ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ] __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

03-04-2002, 08:52 PM	#7
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	Oh dear, I'm too hard-headed to actually discuss whether Balrogs hae wings or no. I think he's referring to an increased presence rather than a change in characterization. Thranic, how say you? __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

03-04-2002, 07:34 PM	#4
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	Interesting theory? I can't even tell what the theory is. By the way, "Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years."

03-04-2002, 08:21 PM	#6
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	I've been here, Maril. Posting in other, generally Balrog-related threads. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] I don't see any reason to believe Tolkien's opinion of women changed. From what to what, exactly? They seem to me to be consistently strong-willed, intelligent, and noble. Maybe I'm still not getting it.

03-04-2002, 09:54 PM	#8
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	I believe you are onto something there, Maril! That's the theory I was looking for! Ayalambo! [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"