Public Research: Race

[HerenIstarion]

This is also part of Public Research Project, and deals with the race you belong to.

Race as employed here means:

Lineage, Templeton (1998)

A subspecies (race) is a distinct evolutionary lineage within a species. This definition requires that a subspecies be genetically differentiated due to barriers to genetic exchange that have persisted for long periods of time; that is, the subspecies must have historical continuity in addition to current genetic differentiation

The research is based on self-identification, so in this poll you are allowed to pick more than one category (of course, as in the case of most other polls of the project but relatively 'hramless', this one is also anonymous) As majority of our members are from U.S., the categories themselves are based on 2000 U.S. Census, with the one difference - Hispanic is added to stand as a race (though it generally be considered ethnicity rather than race), but I've decided to follow suit as set in Civilizations (where Latin American was set apart)

You are free to abstain from posting, yet are welcome to post in the thread if you feel inclined to. Of course, as in all threads of the project, comparative discussion of races is strictly prohibited. Any post hinting at something with a slightest tint of 'superiority/inferiority' in it will be personally negatively rated by me. I will also apply to authorities to have the author temporarily (the spell depends on weight of offence) banned from the forum.

Being properly warned, I invite you to fire out.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

Any post hinting at something with a slightest tint of 'superiority/inferiority' in it will be personally negatively rated by me.

First off, add my voice to that comment. It might not be much, but it's got to be worth something.

Second, even though I identified myself as "Latin American" before I won't say I'm "Hispanic". I'm most definetly White as my great grand parents came from Poland (actually, one of them from the border between Russia and Poland if I'm not mistaken but it's about the same thing).

(Warning, this might be slightly off-topic, be advised... and advise me if I should edit it out)
I was just thinking, and if anyone can enlighten me I'd be greatly pelased, aren't hispanic people descendent from the native people that fell under the Spanish crown? and if so, wouldn't the difference between Native Americans in North America and Hispanic people in central and south america be cultural rather than "racial"?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Farael

(Warning, this might be slightly off-topic, be advised... and advise me if I should edit it out)
I was just thinking, and if anyone can enlighten me I'd be greatly pelased, aren't hispanic people descendent from the native people that fell under the Spanish crown? and if so, wouldn't the difference between Native Americans in North America and Hispanic people in central and south america be cultural rather than "racial"?

Hispanic, from the view taken here, would appear to be people who are ethnically descended PRIMARILY- as you say- from the Native Americans of what is now known as Latin America, but the Europeans and their African slaves settled these areas as well, and the Hispanic culture- and the Hispanic race- is a mixture of Native, European, and African backgrounds, although Native American would, if any, seem to predominate.

As for myself, I am a bit amused to see several alternatives offered for those in Asia, while those of us of European lineage must content ourselves, for the most part, with "white". A fair balance, I suppose, for the Christian-heavy diversity on the religion poll.

Now, in case anyone was so foolish thus far as to wonder, I am, I suppose, solidly placed in the "white" category, though I am actually a rather pasty colour, with pinkish overtones. I am descended, primarily from the Teutonic invaders of western Europe and the Celtic peoples that they overran, being completely of Dutch and German descent. Any such smidgeons (unknown to me) of alternative lineage would probably be Russian... or other miscellaneous European.

[HerenIstarion]

A fair balance, I suppose, for the Christian-heavy diversity on the religion poll

Indeed. And polls have limitations, alas. With language poll, I divided it into two parts. Here, I contended myself with giving multiple choice option.

[Anguirel]

Asia from Constantiople to Burma feels a bit uncatered for. Asia: Other for them, perhaps, though it jars somehow...

[HerenIstarion]

From Constantinople to eastern borders of Iraq, Iran & Afghanistan (not quite Burma, but not far off either) people genetically belong to 'white' (even if linguistically Altaic, but even there - Persian is Indo-European language). Middle Asia lean closer to China. So 'other' here may mean Hindu (which are also quite close to 'white', to the extent I count it there) or selfsame Middle Asia (Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan etc, and of course all else not covered by China etc entries). Turkmenistan may be set apart, but than again - closer to 'white' than 'China'.

The term employed instead of what the poll has marked as 'Asia' when I was studying biology was 'mongoloid', but this one is out of use long since (it was out of date even than). Probably, if I were making the survey some 30 years back, the Asia entries would have been titled 'mongoloid', but they are none, since it is not 30 years back but is now.

I should stress, therefore, that white here is used in broader sense than merely geographical 'Europe/North America'

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

It seems odd that two of the options is Black and White, when you divide asians into different groups, sertanly africans should too. There is a great differens from beeing a Somali to beeing a Dodoth (mainly lives in Uganda). The same actually goes for white.

I just thought I would mention it. . .

[Roa_Aoife]

The genetic engineer in me is dying to get out so:

Not that I have any problem with the indication of "Race," (I don't) but I feel obliged to point out the scientific view point, which is, put simply, that there is no such thing. Genetically speaking, I (white as white can be) have more in common with a girl that is Black than I do with any white males. There is not enough genetic difference to determine any actual race. If there were, we would divide homo sapiens sapiens into sub species, like homo sapiens caucasia, etc. All humans are in fact 99.9995% exactly alike. It's that 0.0005% that determines any unique physical characteristics.

That concludes our science lesson for today. Carry on!

[Roa_Aoife]

Oh, and I feel this must be said, just for humor appeal. So on most such polls, instead of "white" we say "caucasian." In that light,


ALL HAIL CAUCASIA, THE MOTHERLAND! *Starts singing the beloved Caucasia National Anthem, while saluting the Caucasia flag*

[JennyHallu]

Actually, natives of India are technically Caucasion. (Definition) However, the term is no longer in scientific use.

[Valesse]

Oh I hate that.

Only about a quarter of me could really truely claim (with some feeble authority) that its Caucasian. The rest of my ancestors were apparently wary of anything vaguely mountainous.

I agree that if we had the time to be more 'politcally correct' a longer list of ethnicities and races would be nice, but in all honesty that would be list could be longer than I am tall, and if I do say so... I'm quite tall.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

We do have the word caucasian in our language, but it used relating to the Caucasus region or its peoples, languages, or cultures. (kaukasisk)

[JennyHallu]

I think you could safely separate "White" into Hindu, Arabic/Persian, and European. Even more interesting would be to separate European into Norse, Slavic, and umm...everybody else, since there are definite physical and cultural differences there, but I'm not sure what you would call everybody else, and I know some Americans who would have a hard time picking. If they haven't already...think Tiger Woods.

[Roa_Aoife]

You could conceivably add Germanic and Celtic to the European list, Jenny.

Not mention Mediteranean.

[JennyHallu]

Mediterranean would work for the geographic definition of Caucasian. (Look up Caucasia) I can see Germanic, but I'm not entirely sure if Celtic is racially separate. Really, it's a Germanic sub-class. For that matter, so are Norse and Slavic...hmm....must think more. Maybe add Celtic but not Germanic. Or call it Germanic-Other or something.

Us poor Americans...I think I've got myself under three different European categories now...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Do you want both Norse and Germanic? As I see it most Norse People are Germanic, with exeptions like the Saami (you know them from Lapland)

[JennyHallu]

I'm not sure. Celtics are also technically Germanic. I have never heard of the Saami.

NEW CATEGORY!

*facedesk*

Lost cause! Let's lobby to end hyphenated humanity!!

[Farael]

Although it's early, I find the poll results quite surprising so far. I guess our Filipino bunch have not had time to post yet (or have decided not to) but while I expected somewhat of a higher number of white/caucassian readers, I did not expect it to be THAT predominant.

I Guess it might have to do with Tolkien's writing style and the cultures it's associated with (after all, Lord Of The Rings, Hobbit and The Sil.. are fairly western-style books, and white peoples are predominant in western countries) But specially after the movies, I'd expected to be a bit more evenly distributed.

And then, it has not been 24 hours since the poll opened.

[HerenIstarion]

Pull up your horses!

The thread is not supposed to discuss whether classification is precisely correct or not - at the very least, I can no longer do anything to change it (even if I wished to, and I do not) - once the poll is posted, nobody (but administrator, but that's obvious) could alter it - see spelling error in one of my first polls, standing to my shame for two years and more. At the most, there is not a single, commonly agreed upon classification at all. I lean on sources (U.S. Census) generally accepted as fit for public surveys of the kind.

As in 'religion' poll Christian option was given more diversification because of assumed majority of Christian readers, so here I've came to opposite conclusion -- the very obvious majority of 'white' (Caucasian, whatever term you'd like to employ) readers made me make only one entry for them. So, no new categories will be added to current poll, neither alteration is to come about. Probably, if need be, I may open up special poll to study diversification inside the 'Caucasian' group, but here the purpose is to compare the group with the 'rest of the world'.

There is not enough genetic difference to determine any actual race. If there were, we would divide homo sapiens sapiens into sub species, like homo sapiens caucasia, etc. All humans are in fact 99.9995% exactly alike. It's that 0.0005% that determines any unique physical characteristics.

Yes, and yes, and another yes. But 'unique physical characteristics' is what rouses general interest, all in all. If the difference was expressed in form and colour of the liver, or in something equally invisible on the surface and there were no outwardly expressed deviations, nobody would think twice about the issue but genetic engineers. Do not look at the poll as a 'scientific' enterprise - it's more sociology than anthropology, and sociology is not what I'd call 'exact science'

Conclusion - the thread is not about what you 'want', it's about what I asks, and asks nicely, and even begs, if you please

[Aiwendil]

Celtics are also technically Germanic.

Really? I was always rather under the impression that the Celts are not Germanic. They certainly were not part of the Germanic language family.

[the guy who be short]

Being entirely of Indian descent, I feel a little wary about classifying myself as "White," seeing as I am, quite clearly, not. I am a curious light reddish-brown colour. If we presume "White" to mean "Caucasian" then I will vote so; if not, I will vote for Asian (Other).

I await Heren's response.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by TGWBS

I await Heren's response

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

The reseach is based on self-identification

Pick both

[JennyHallu]

Sorry, Heren...

Honestly, I didn't mean to criticize the demarcations you laid out. I was merely pontificating (i like that word ) on how racial/cultural differences could be classified, if one wished to, and felt like getting nitty-gritty. Personally I'm one of those that annoy census people by skipping the question.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Heren

Conclusion - the thread is not about what you 'want', it's about what I asks, and asks nicely, and even begs, if you please

You are certainly brave in setting up this poll. I once had to set up an Equal Opps monitoring system and called in an expert to help me with categories (very important as it was for public use by an organisation). We concluded that the safest option was simply to ask people to write in what they considered their 'race' (or ethnic origin as it tends to be called here) to be!

I think I know where tgwbs may have got stuck, as 'Asian' in the UK usually means Indian/Pakistani origin, whereas in most other countries it means Chinese/Pacific Rim.

Anyway, what's the next poll? I'm finding these interesting!

[Roa_Aoife]

Celtic and Germanic peoples are not the same group. In fact, as far back as archeology can determine they existed, the Germanic Tribes and Celtic Tribes were bitter enemies. Celtic peoples included the Gauls, Gaels, Franks, and Britons, while the Germanic peoples included the Angles, Saxons, Normans, and Goths. The language tree is entirely different- just compare English to Gaelic and you'll see the differences.

[JennyHallu]

*bows to superior knowledge* I stand corrected on celtic/germanic. But Gallic and Frankish languages are purely Italic...Must do research. Sometimes I wish I weren't curious.

(You'd think I'd know this...I'm a direct descendant Highland Scot, and my husband is maybe 3rd gen Irish-American (But not Celtic))

[Anguirel]

It's sometimes called the Gael/Gall divide. As best summed up by TH White...

[Aiwendil]

But Gallic and Frankish languages are purely Italic...Must do research. Sometimes I wish I weren't curious.

Well - French is an Italic language (descended from Latin)
Frankish was the Germanic language of the Franks.
Gaulish was the Celtic language spoken in Gaul before Latin became predominant.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Farael

Although it's early, I find the poll results quite surprising so far. I guess our Filipino bunch have not had time to post yet (or have decided not to) but while I expected somewhat of a higher number of white/caucassian readers, I did not expect it to be THAT predominant.

There you go, Farael.

Not vote? Why on earth would we do that? After everything HerenIstarion went through to put these polls up...

EDIT: Speaking of which, thank you so much HI for that option. I feel loved...

[Lush]

"White" is so... narrow. I'm a proud Slav! A descendant of Vikings, Varangians, and Sarmatians! What is this "white" you speak of?!

[Holbytlass]

White, pasty white with thousands of brown spots all over called freckles that a Pacific Islander person thought was a rash!

[Orominuialwen]

I'm white and a tiny bit Native American, so that's how I'll vote.