The Hobbit - Chapter 04 - Over Hill and Under Hill

[Tuor of Gondolin]

This chapter also again brings up the questions
of anachronisms and inconsistencies with LOTR.
For example, should JRRT have removed/changed the
fairy tale-ish picture of stone giants and Thorin's allusion to
football (soccer).

But we musn't discuss this too much, preciouss.
Yess, 'praps the next chapter is poor Smeagol's
favorite, except when Thief Baggins cheats in it.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Originally Posted by morm

I have difficulty with this. I can not for the life of me imagine Ugluk, Shagrat or Gorbag signing to each other or their captives. I can imagine them torturing them but not singing.

It's very appropriate for the Hobbit's style that the goblins sing, and while I have hard time imagining Shagrat and Gorbag sitting around a campfire and singing, I'm not sure whether it would be too weird to hear orcs sing in LotR or not. After all, the goblins' singing was described to be croaking and a big part of the lyrics here is ghastly sound effects and laughing. I'd imagine their songs were hardly anything like organized a cappella performances but rather just, well, croaking when they got excited.

There's this painting by John Howe, and although it's a portrait of Gollum, I've always pictured the goblins to look like that. They're vile (keeping slaves, making torturing devices) and sneaky (sprinters with soft shoes ), but not like PJ's Uruk-hai, although the description of the Great Goblin sounded a bit like that.

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Plus, the orcs of Moria had drums. Considering how rarely anyone ventured into the caves, it is unlikely they built the drums solely for the purpose of scaring the socks off random passersby...

The drums didn't necessarily serve any musical purpose in the goblin society. They used to be handy tools for communicating since their sound could be heard over great distances. I'd believe that in labyrinthic caves drumming would have been an ideal way to send messages without too much trouble. Besides, since the message "language" was probably different among different tribes and cultures, unwanted people (spies, whom the goblins seemed to be afraid of) couldn't have interpreted the messages.

Originally Posted by TH, Over Hill and Under Hill

Far, far away in the West, where things were blue and faint, Bilbo knew there lay his own country of safe and comfortable things, and his little hobbit-hole.
...
The summer is getting on down below.

I just started thinking, since there were no TVs, cameras or such in Middle-earth, Bilbo hadn't ever seen what it is like to watch the lands so far up above. That must have been quite an experience for him. Probably a good way to open his eyes to see that there's so much outside the borders of the Shire, too. What is it like to be so isolated from other people than your companions and be so far away from home that even the seasons can't reach you? Quite daunting for poor Bilbo, I guess.

[JennyHallu]

The drums didn't necessarily serve any musical purpose in the goblin society. They used to be handy tools for communicating since their sound could be heard over great distances. I'd believe that in labyrinthic caves drumming would have been an ideal way to send messages without too much trouble. Besides, since the message "language" was probably different among different tribes and cultures, unwanted people (spies, whom the goblins seemed to be afraid of) couldn't have interpreted the messages.

Yes, but Tolkien specifically states the orcs had no language of their own, but twisted that of others to their own ends. Developing a drum-message system is very like developing an original language, but we don't have any evidence of drum-messages in any other Tolkien culture. More likely the drums were used militarily to give very simple messages, and, i think, for dark parodies of lighter Middle-Earth music.

[Raynor]

Developing a drum-message system is very like developing an original language, but we don't have any evidence of drum-messages in any other Tolkien culture.

I disagree:

Originally Posted by The ride of the Rohirrim

- Is the enemy coming then? asked Merry anxiously. Are those their drums? I began to think I was imagining them, as no one else seemed to take any notice of them.
- Nay, nay, said Elfhelm, the enemy is on the road not in the hills. You hear the Woses, the Wild Men of the Woods: thus they talk together from afar.

[Lalwendë]

I don't have such difficulty in imagining Orcs singing. We do tend to associate singing with beauty, but singing serves many purposes. Rugby players (not that I am equating them with Orcs! ) are well known for getting thoroughly drunk and singing crude and colourful songs. There is also the Haka (sp?) chant - as seen performed by the All Blacks before a match; this is said to derive from ancient Maori war chants. Armies sing as they march to war, and a lot of our popular music is incredibly brutal and visceral. The urge to sing, I'd say, occurs to all sorts of people and in all sorts of situations!

If these Goblins are indeed Orcs, then it interests me that they seem to have some independence and have developed their own realm. But then I remember in LotR Gorbag and Shagrat discuss possible 'retirement', so maybe lifelong (eternal?) service to whichever Dark Lord is currently holding half of Middle-earth in his thrall is not necessarily a given thing for Orcs?

[JennyHallu]

Raynor: You got me...I totally forgot about that. Kudos!

Lalwende:

If these Goblins are indeed Orcs, then it interests me that they seem to have some independence and have developed their own realm. But then I remember in LotR Gorbag and Shagrat discuss possible 'retirement', so maybe lifelong (eternal?) service to whichever Dark Lord is currently holding half of Middle-earth in his thrall is not necessarily a given thing for Orcs?

Interesting...when Morgoth twisted the elves into orcs were they yet capable of any virtuous feeling? Perhaps orcs and goblins are incapable of true loyalty, and can only be held by fear. If this is so, when Shagrat and Gorbag discussed retirement, was that just talking big, a sign of Sauron's weakness and indecision, or did Sauron honestly reward those who had served him for so long?

And that last I seriously doubt...

[mormegil]

My problem isn't that they are singing it's the actual song they are singing. It's too light, too whimsical for orcs/goblins. It sounds reminscant of the elves singing in Rivendell.

Another thing to note is that Bilbo understood what was sung. So these goblins were specifically singing in the common toungue. This is interesting because Tolkien points out later that they couldn't understand the Warg toungue, with the exception of Gandalf. Also in LotR we note how Tolkien takes the time to explain that though the orcs from different clans have different languages they speak the common toungue with each other and thus Merry and Pippin could understand them. Now what does this mean? To me it indicates that it wasn't just ritious singing and reveling on the goblins part but singing such riduculous things to their captives was on purpose and to be frank this is one of the reasons I don't enjoy The Hobbit as much.