Outrage?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Ok, some more on the issue of the rings (letter #181):

"The 'Three Rings' were 'unsullied', because this object was in a limited way good, it included the healing of the real damages of malice, as well as the mere arrest of change; and the Elves did not desire to dominate other wills, nor to usurp all the world to their particular pleasure.But with the downfall of 'Power' their little efforts at preserving the past fell to bits. There was nothing more in Middle-earth for them, but weariness. So Elrond and Galadriel depart."
I would agree with the first tradition; concerning the second one, Men could only truly advance in matters of wisdom, since their hroar are continuously erroded - unless there is a special divine intervention to help them.
Tolkien does reffer to Numenoreans as "Man rehabilitated", although that was true only for a short while.

Well, that is a bit of a strawman, since I wasn't reffering to the One ring, but to the elven use of magic, concerning which (letter #155):

"Magia could be, was, held good (per se), and goeteia bad. Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose or use. Both sides use both, but with different motives"

Fair enough.

From the letter #131:

"The doom of the Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world, to bring it to full flower with their gifts of delicacy and perfection, to last while it lasts, never leaving it even when 'slain', but returning - and yet, when the Followers come, to teach them, and make way for them, to 'fade' as the Followers grow and absorb the life from which both proceed"

If Tolkien considered his Elves' primary purpose to be the elevation of Man, then he did not write what he intended. All the reading I've done reveals that the Elves' primary purpose was subcreation; teaching Men was a by-product.

[Nogrod]

Quote: Raynor
From the letter #131:

"The doom of the Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world, to bring it to full flower with their gifts of delicacy and perfection, to last while it lasts, never leaving it even when 'slain', but returning - and yet, when the Followers come, to teach them, and make way for them, to 'fade' as the Followers grow and absorb the life from which both proceed"

Quote: Littlemanpoet
If Tolkien considered his Elves' primary purpose to be the elevation of Man, then he did not write what he intended. All the reading I've done reveals that the Elves' primary purpose was subcreation; teaching Men was a by-product.

It's also always a good thing to make the difference between different kinds of inevitabilities. Something just had to happen, because the way the things around it turned out as they did, or because they were intended by someone / -thing, to fill their function in a grander pattern. (Don't read in here the schism between the theory of evolution and the theory of the ID! It sure lurks there, but this propably isn't the forum for it.)

So on the other hand, things do lead into each other, and thus create the story that is, as looked upon afterwards, the only one that happened; or on the other hand, all things that happen, are being designed beforehand to unfold the way intended.

So elves might just be seen having to wane before the humans', because the way of the world just turned out that way (elves and humans and others making their choices in different situations that would add up the whole story): here they had their noblest chance to pass even some of their own to the later generations in the Middle Earth, by teaching the humans' etc. Or. Then we can see the elves only as filling their role in a grander tale, as the ones' who were "destined" to do just the things they did, ie. that from the very beginning, there was this fate upon elves, and every individual elve's life kind of served this greater purpose.

Who knows, which way Tolkien himself intended this? Was it clear to him, from the very beginning, that elves would fill this role in his world, or was it so, that after all the things he had started and got going, this was the only way the things could come out? Or was there something like "poetic fatalism", that kind of saw and arranged this beforehand, and Tolkien just followed, realizing it only at a later stage?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

Of course, we have to be careful not to lay all the 'sin' at Galadriel's door. Tolkien states that this is an Elvish failing, not simply a 'Galadrien' one. Her ambition was higher than her compatriots, so she became greater, but consequently her 'sin' was greater. Its interesting that she 'passes' the test & is allowed to return into the West not because of her efforts in the battle against Sauron, not because of her struggles & sacrifices in the war, but because in the end she repents & chooses humility. It is only when she is prepared to 'diminish' (ie to let go of her dreams of power & become simply herself once more) that she is allowed to go home.

Originally Posted by lmp

If Tolkien considered his Elves' primary purpose to be the elevation of Man, then he did not write what he intended. All the reading I've done reveals that the Elves' primary purpose was subcreation; teaching Men was a by-product.

I'm just wondering on the idea of the Elves' 'purpose' being sub-creation. In a way, Galadriel leaves Valinor for Middle-earth as a result of sub-creation; Feanor is chasing his stolen, sub-created Silmarils and she is one of the group following. She then sub-creates her own realm, and like Feanor, is no stranger to the urges of ambition. By sub-creating, she (like Feanor) makes herself 'bigger'.

Elves are naturally at home in the Undying Lands, but this is a place where they would also presumably be unable to independently pursue the dream of having their own realm. Middle-earth must therefore be an attractive place to them for it not only has great beauty and is the place of the Elves' awakening, but it also offers the potential for independence that the Undying Lands cannot offer. Out of interest, Thingol also remains in Middle-earth and creates a 'magical' realm - I wonder if Galadriel was inspired by this in her wish to create Lothlorien?

[drigel]

Well, Elrond isn't all High Elf is he? so is his nostalgia tempered by his understanding of the Gift of Death? Or is he 'saved' from Galadriel's error by his understanding?

Granted, Galadriel is the only representation of High Elf in LOTR, with the exeption of a quick but intriguing glimpse at Glorfindel. But, I would agree with you Beth about Elrond. Being the progeny of Earendil does place him in a unique position, as far as his insight into mortals go. Yet, he too wields a ring. To what end?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Who knows, which way Tolkien himself intended this? Was it clear to him, from the very beginning, that elves would fill this role in his world, or was it so, that after all the things he had started and got going, this was the only way the things could come out? Or was there something like "poetic fatalism", that kind of saw and arranged this beforehand, and Tolkien just followed, realizing it only at a later stage?

The letter I reffered to predates even the publishing of LotR .

Originally Posted by Lalwende

Middle-earth ... also offers the potential for independence that the Undying Lands cannot offer.

Interestingly enough, that was Melkor's argument ;and as Mandos responds to this:

Originally Posted by Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

Thou speakest of thraldom. If thraldom it be, thou canst not escape it; for Manwe is King of Arda, and not of Aman only