Outrage?

[Raynor]

Ok, some more on the issue of the rings (letter #181):

"The 'Three Rings' were 'unsullied', because this object was in a limited way good, it included the healing of the real damages of malice, as well as the mere arrest of change; and the Elves did not desire to dominate other wills, nor to usurp all the world to their particular pleasure.But with the downfall of 'Power' their little efforts at preserving the past fell to bits. There was nothing more in Middle-earth for them, but weariness. So Elrond and Galadriel depart."

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Isn't it also in a way, that we have two traditions present at the same time, at least in the west. The one would say, that the mankind has fallen from paradise and continues to fall. Everything that is, is less than what was. The second would say, that we, as a mankind, are climbing the ladders of enlightenment and evolution, to the future, that will be all the better for everyone?

I would agree with the first tradition; concerning the second one, Men could only truly advance in matters of wisdom, since their hroar are continuously erroded - unless there is a special divine intervention to help them.

I must say, I'm at odds with this "raising men to a higher level of their potential". Isn't Tolkien more like a romantic, who kind of lays before our eyes, what we could have been, but which we never were?

Tolkien does reffer to Numenoreans as "Man rehabilitated", although that was true only for a short while.

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I can't agree. Gandalf refuses the Ring when Frodo offers it because he knows that it would corrupt him, though he would begin his tyranny with good motives.

Well, that is a bit of a strawman, since I wasn't reffering to the One ring, but to the elven use of magic, concerning which (letter #155):

"Magia could be, was, held good (per se), and goeteia bad. Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose or use. Both sides use both, but with different motives"

Those myths are about Elves who without fail affected Men, most often for the worse, as has been discussed elsewhere on the Downs, but not as their God-(or Eru)-given purpose!

From the letter #131:

"The doom of the Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world, to bring it to full flower with their gifts of delicacy and perfection, to last while it lasts, never leaving it even when 'slain', but returning - and yet, when the Followers come, to teach them, and make way for them, to 'fade' as the Followers grow and absorb the life from which both proceed"

Moreover, Tolkien states that, prior to the One Ring, Sauron ruled over _all_ Men who didn't have contact with the elves.

It should be noted, also, that in the mythos Tolkien created, blood-lines were of utmost importance, and in Faramir the Numenorean ran true, and Tolkien "plays this up"

While I agree that blood is given a good deal of importance, Tolkien also makes the following remarks in the letters:

Here we meet, among other things, the first example of the motive (to become dominant in Hobbits) that the great policies of world history, 'the wheels of the world', are often turned not by the Lords and Governors, even gods, but by the seemingly unknown and weak - owing to the secret life in creation, and the pan unknowable to all wisdom but One, that resides in the intrusions of the Children of God into the Drama. It is Beren the outlawed monal who succeeds (with the help of Luthien, a mere maiden even if an elf of royalty) where all the armies and warriors have failed: he penetrates the stronghold of the Enemy and wrests one of the Silmarilli from the Iron Crown.
...
[the] structure [of the story]is planned to be 'hobbito-centric', that is, primarily a study of the ennoblement (or sanctification) of the humble

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

"The 'Three Rings' were 'unsullied', because this object was in a limited way good, it included the healing of the real damages of malice, as well as the mere arrest of change; and the Elves did not desire to dominate other wills, nor to usurp all the world to their particular pleasure.But with the downfall of 'Power' their little efforts at preserving the past fell to bits. There was nothing more in Middle-earth for them, but weariness. So Elrond and Galadriel depart."

Yet we have Tolkien's own assessment of the Elves' motives (can't say which letter, as I've just found the quote on a search) :

But the Elves are not wholly good or in the right. Not so much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or without his assistance they were 'embalmers'. They wanted to have their cake and eat it: to live in the mortal historical Middle-earth because they had become fond of it (and perhaps because they there had the advantages of a superior caste), and so tried to stop its change and history, stop its growth, keep it as a pleasaunce, even largely a desert, where they could be 'artists' – and they were overburdened with sadness and nostalgic regret.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

Yet we have Tolkien's own assessment of the Elves' motives (can't say which letter, as I've just found the quote on a search) :

This to me bears out some of my suspicions about Galadriel. In Middle-earth she is able to have her own realm and to exercise power, something she desires. That she desires it is borne out in both the wooing gifts of Celebrimbor which will bestow greater power, and her comment about the One Ring that she has 'desired' it at some point, whether to see if she can be the one to destroy it or use it I'm not commenting on here. When she says she will 'diminish' and go West, it is literally that - she will give up notions of power and independence as in the Undying Lands there are undoubtedly many Elves greater than she is and she will once more be but one of many.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

This to me bears out some of my suspicions about Galadriel. In Middle-earth she is able to have her own realm and to exercise power, something she desires. That she desires it is borne out in both the wooing gifts of Celebrimbor which will bestow greater power, and her comment about the One Ring that she has 'desired' it at some point, whether to see if she can be the one to destroy it or use it I'm not commenting on here. When she says she will 'diminish' and go West, it is literally that - she will give up notions of power and independence as in the Undying Lands there are undoubtedly many Elves greater than she is and she will once more be but one of many.

And just to remind the point made earlier by davem, she is making the Lorien stand with the help of a craft, or technology (ie. the ring she has), and even having doubts', whether she should continue doing so, maybe taking the One Ring to settle things for the time being...

And if we interpret Tolkien being against all technological views' of the world, then also Galadriel is "damned". She also represents the age of the fallen, those who try to yield powers that make themselves slaves at the same time.

Holding Lorien blossoming, is against the turn of the tide. To try to reserve it, is a "blasbhemy", not yielding to the "natural" shape of events' unfolding. So she must wane. (She might have fought back, with her ring - or even with the One Ring - but in the end, she would have lost the battle). And there is heroism in her decline! She is the last to willfully deny technological might and freely wane herself out of power. So one of the elders', true kin to generations' that have passed before her. (Well, we could discuss Boromir or Faramir in here, but I think, they haven't the symbolical value of Galadriels' denial)

These "people" entangled themselves with the fortunes' of the ring. They beated the One Ring, just to build up their own society, based on principles' that the ring could vote for...?

[davem]

Of course, we have to be careful not to lay all the 'sin' at Galadriel's door. Tolkien states that this is an Elvish failing, not simply a 'Galadrien' one. Her ambition was higher than her compatriots, so she became greater, but consequently her 'sin' was greater. Its interesting that she 'passes' the test & is allowed to return into the West not because of her efforts in the battle against Sauron, not because of her struggles & sacrifices in the war, but because in the end she repents & chooses humility. It is only when she is prepared to 'diminish' (ie to let go of her dreams of power & become simply herself once more) that she is allowed to go home.

This is in sharp contrast to Frodo for whom there is 'no real going back'. The Shire will not be the same for him because he is not the same Hobbit he was. Galadriel can let go of everything she had been & return to her original state - Frodo cannot. Why?

Perhaps because the persona Galadriel had created for herself was, in the end, a false one, while for Frodo the changes that happened to him were not self imposed falsehoods but were a true transformation. The Galadriel we meet in LotR is not the true Galadriel - only after the offer & rejection of the Ring do we see the real Elf-Woman :

She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illumined her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad.

I wonder what this tells us about Tolkien's philosophy, about the 'laws' of Middle-earth?
In this passage we see first of all the false persona: 'She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful.' Then we see the real woman:'a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad..

Galadriel changes herself, effectivly makes herself into a work of Art (yet can we call it 'Art' in the Tolkienien sense when it is achieved through magic, the powers of Elessar & Elven Ring? Frodo, on the other hand, is transformed through his experiences. Galadriel can go home merely by letting go of the false persona she has built up, Frodo cannot go home because he has actually become a different person. Galadriel has been playing a game with power, she is like a child playing at grown-ups (this is true for all the good she achieves). In the end she 'merely' has to put away her toys (much though she may have loved those toys, much though she may have achieved with them). Frodo hasn't been playing at all. In the end, though, it is Frodo who achieves the great victory, not Galadriel. So, it is Frodo who loses all not Galadriel.

Yet both have learned a lesson & 'grown' (ironically, the consequence of Galadriel's 'growth is to become 'shrunken' - though actually she only 'shrinks' to her true 'size'. Frodo actually 'grows' morally & spiritually). Galadriel comes to the realisation that she is too 'small' for her fantasy, Frodo that he is too 'big' for his old reality. Galadriel goes home, Frodo goes into exile. I don't know who gets the better of the deal: We can't say that in her return to the Undying Lands Galadriel is being rewarded - she's only going back to what she had before. Frodo, on the other hand, is said to be being 'rewarded' by being allowed to pass into the West. Yet we have to ask whether the 'reward' is worth the suffering he had to go through - we're never actually told whether he felt it was all worth it: he merely tells Sam that sometimes it must be so - that someone has to lose the things they love so that others may keep them. He cannot just let his hand fall, laugh, & become a simple Hobbit again.

Of course, she, at the test, was able to reject the Ring. He was not.

[drigel]

wonder what this tells us about Tolkien's philosophy, about the 'laws' of Middle-earth?

Its a wonderfull personification of the elvish story by that time (actually starting at the conclusion of the Last Alliance). The transition age where legend slips away, and the harsh reality of the fact that the age of mankind is being ushered in, like it or not. To me, the rings use for her (could she have done the same thing with Vilya?) was all about the attitude of a High Elf that remembered paradise, but also remembered ME in its vigorous youth, and how close it was to paradise, before so much marring. And the realization by LOTR that the ravages of time can sweep away both the ideal of ME and the ideal of her people.

The Galadriel we meet in LotR is not the true Galadriel - only after the offer & rejection of the Ring do we see the real Elf-Woman

She was both because she HAD to be both, IMO. It may have been regional by that time, but her kingdom was necessary and vital to the ultimate mission. Plenty of chances to sail west for her, although I think pre-Frodo, in her mind, she didnt think she had Pardon. Which to me sets up the idea that the idea of being unforgiven motivated a lot of her decision making, to her credit. Not that she had something to prove, but that she didnt let that change her soul, ultimately.

Holding Lorien blossoming, is against the turn of the tide. To try to reserve it, is a "blasbhemy", not yielding to the "natural" shape of events' unfolding.

It is, and the use of technology augments it. But then again, so is any civilized existense, no? We all blaspheme as soon as we left the tree. It reminds me of a conservation project that is trying to save a certain species from extinction, regardless of the impact, or even whether or not it was our fault. Plenty of extinctions occur, most have happened long before we came on the scene to have an impact. Some would call that a sin, others would call it benevolent, most wouldnt decry blasphemer, would they?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Interesting that Tolkien gives central importance to riddling not to the Rohirrim, but to the hobbits--or at least Gollem and Bilbo. Also interesting that riddles are absent from Beowulf. I can't recall that The Battle of Maldon has any, but it's been some time since I read it. Maybe our resident Old English scholars--Squatter and Fordim-- can suggest why-- if indeed it is the case--riddles are absent from the heroic literature.

To be quite honest, a lot of the belief in the Anglo-Saxon love of riddles is based on conjecture, mainly raised to explain why a bishop would donate a collection of them, some of which are extremely suggestive, to a group of Benedictine monks. Clearly wisdom and knowledge were important to Anglo-Saxons, just as to their cousins in the Norse world, but their own maxims could well have been influenced by biblical models, and much ink has been spent on debating the point. What we might term (and I will because I'm not being marked) the 'greatest hits' of Anglo-Saxon England, apart from the Exeter Book riddles themselves, contain little of the character of Bilbo and Gollum's encounter in The Hobbit. That looks more like the sort of wisdom contest that one encounters in Vafþrúðnismál (translated here and here), although in the Icelandic poem there are no riddles, only a direct testing of knowledge with a suitably high stake. An Old-English treatment of the same form of contest is Solomon and Saturn, in which the pagan deity, made human in line with early-medieval thinking, contends with the legendarily wise king of Israel. In this latter contest, the stake is not a head but faith: Saturn is eventually convinced of the truth of Christianity and laughs with joy at the realisation.

Perhaps the closest episode to the contest in The Hobbit that I've seen is Alcuin's Disputatio Pippini cum Albino scholastico. This is a Latin work, written at the court of Charlemagne, but its author was a Northumbrian with close ties to the northern English church. Then again, in this third piece, there is no stake. The contest is a light-hearted game between two learned men, scholar and patron, and lacks the confrontational aspects of the two examples above.

What Tolkien did in Riddles in the Dark and throughout The Hobbit was to combine disparate Germanic ideas in a new context (yes, I know there's a word for that, but I don't like it). Bilbo stands in the role of Oðinn, and his head is also at stake. However, instead of the rather disappointing oral examination to which the Norse god and the frost-giant subject one another, Tolkien substitutes actual riddles with the same enthusiasm as did Alcuin. He reconstructs a game in which the Exeter Book riddles might have been used, following the pattern of medieval exemplars.

Heroic poetry has little space for formalised riddle-contests, although it does abound with maxims and contests of wit and intelligence. Indeed, the opening lines of The Finnsburh fragment may be the conclusion of a pseudo-riddle, in which a mysterious phenomenon is described in riddling terms, only to be explained by the hero of the piece. The most obvious point is that heroic literature lives chiefly on the battlefield, whereas riddles are definitely an occupation for an idle hour. There seems little sense in warriors hurling crossword clues at one another when they ought to be throwing spears, and the main use of conundra is therefore to demonstrate the intellectual superiority of the protagonists. In The Hobbit, Bilbo's winning riddle only demonstrates his own confusion, which is probably a subtle joke on Tolkien's part: many hours have been spent in debate over the meaning of Old English riddles.

The Rohirrim, although Anglo-Saxon in many respects, are based on the characters of Old English poetry, which as it survives is not laden with formal riddles. The closest that heroic Anglo-Saxon verse comes to genuine riddles is its extensive use of metaphor and variation, which is used by some to suggest a love of enigmatic speech. Being more rooted in the heroic episodes, the Rohirrim are less likely to show the more playful aspects of surviving Anglo-Saxon culture that Tolkien gives to the Hobbits, although it is unlikely that the Rohirrim were without riddles; I am sure that The Lord of the Rings contains a passing reference by Merry to Théoden's knowledge of them, although I must rely on another member's better memory to confirm or deny this. [EDIT: Actually it doesn't. I looked last night and could find no such reference. Since it doesn't seem to appear in the Letters or Unfinished Tales either, it must have been a figment of my imagination.]

On the subject of Mercia, we should be very circumspect. The Old English form of this name, Mierce means 'border people', which is a good description of both the Rohirrim and the Mercians. The Old English word mearc, mearce means, among other things, a boundary, and Tolkien's use of it in The Lord of the Rings is probably descriptive rather than related to the Anglo-Saxon kingdom. It should also be borne in mind that Mercia does not equal the West Midlands, as Tolkien would have been the first to point out. At its height under Offa, Mercia formed the whole of central England, from the northern borders of Kent and Wessex to the Humber, from parts of modern Wales to East Anglia. Tolkien sometimes described himself as a Mercian, but his fiction in that direction need not have influenced his portrayal of Rohan.

Sorry to continue down what looks to be a cul-de-sac, but in my defence I was asked.

As for Tolkien's love of the culture which, as Lal says, "was cut off in its flowering"--and to relate this to the question of nostalgia--I know of at least one Old English scholar who used to hand out a chronology which ended with this:

"1066 Sic Transit Gloria Mundi"

Indeed it does, and, indeed, did: sic semper barbari vincent. This is the main pillar of my proof that in the end every civilisation is destroyed by pretentious nouveaux riches.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

Yet we have Tolkien's own assessment of the Elves' motives (can't say which letter, as I've just found the quote on a search) :

Yet not even the valar are entirely good in a corrupted world, esspecially everyone (but the Men) is dependent to a 'tainted' music; moreover, the motivation for this particular actions stems also from Eru:

But the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children

They just did their creator's will and followed their own nature - not much blasphemy to me there.

When she says she will 'diminish' and go West, it is literally that - she will give up notions of power and independence as in the Undying Lands there are undoubtedly many Elves greater than she is and she will once more be but one of many.

I think she merely appears weary due to her challenge - she must have put forth a great deal of will power. In the greater sense, all elves of the west are better 'preserverd' phisically:

Originally Posted by Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

That I can well believe, said Finrod: that your bodies suffer in some measure the malice of Melkor. For you live in Arda Marred, as do we, and all the matter of Arda was tainted by him, before ye or we came forth and drew our hroar and their sustenance therefrom: all save only maybe Aman before he came there. For know, it is not otherwise with the Quendi themselves: their health and stature is diminished. Already those of us who dwell in Middle-earth, and even we who have returned to it, find that the change of their bodies is swifter than in the beginning. And that, I judge, must forebode that they will prove less strong to last than they were designed to be, though this may not be clearly revealed for many long years. And likewise with the hroar of Men, they are weaker than they should be. Thus it comes to pass that here in the West, to which of old his power scarcely extended, they have more health, as you say.

yet the elves of ME are enriched wisdom - I would say it is worth the trade . I don't think Galadriel would be a 'common' elf - she did after all get Gimli's admission into Valinor, the people she ruled would still follow her, and her lore is above most elves'.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Ok, some more on the issue of the rings (letter #181):

"The 'Three Rings' were 'unsullied', because this object was in a limited way good, it included the healing of the real damages of malice, as well as the mere arrest of change; and the Elves did not desire to dominate other wills, nor to usurp all the world to their particular pleasure.But with the downfall of 'Power' their little efforts at preserving the past fell to bits. There was nothing more in Middle-earth for them, but weariness. So Elrond and Galadriel depart."
I would agree with the first tradition; concerning the second one, Men could only truly advance in matters of wisdom, since their hroar are continuously erroded - unless there is a special divine intervention to help them.
Tolkien does reffer to Numenoreans as "Man rehabilitated", although that was true only for a short while.

Well, that is a bit of a strawman, since I wasn't reffering to the One ring, but to the elven use of magic, concerning which (letter #155):

"Magia could be, was, held good (per se), and goeteia bad. Neither is, in this tale, good or bad (per se), but only by motive or purpose or use. Both sides use both, but with different motives"

Fair enough.

From the letter #131:

"The doom of the Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world, to bring it to full flower with their gifts of delicacy and perfection, to last while it lasts, never leaving it even when 'slain', but returning - and yet, when the Followers come, to teach them, and make way for them, to 'fade' as the Followers grow and absorb the life from which both proceed"

If Tolkien considered his Elves' primary purpose to be the elevation of Man, then he did not write what he intended. All the reading I've done reveals that the Elves' primary purpose was subcreation; teaching Men was a by-product.

[Nogrod]

Quote: Raynor
From the letter #131:

"The doom of the Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world, to bring it to full flower with their gifts of delicacy and perfection, to last while it lasts, never leaving it even when 'slain', but returning - and yet, when the Followers come, to teach them, and make way for them, to 'fade' as the Followers grow and absorb the life from which both proceed"

Quote: Littlemanpoet
If Tolkien considered his Elves' primary purpose to be the elevation of Man, then he did not write what he intended. All the reading I've done reveals that the Elves' primary purpose was subcreation; teaching Men was a by-product.

It's also always a good thing to make the difference between different kinds of inevitabilities. Something just had to happen, because the way the things around it turned out as they did, or because they were intended by someone / -thing, to fill their function in a grander pattern. (Don't read in here the schism between the theory of evolution and the theory of the ID! It sure lurks there, but this propably isn't the forum for it.)

So on the other hand, things do lead into each other, and thus create the story that is, as looked upon afterwards, the only one that happened; or on the other hand, all things that happen, are being designed beforehand to unfold the way intended.

So elves might just be seen having to wane before the humans', because the way of the world just turned out that way (elves and humans and others making their choices in different situations that would add up the whole story): here they had their noblest chance to pass even some of their own to the later generations in the Middle Earth, by teaching the humans' etc. Or. Then we can see the elves only as filling their role in a grander tale, as the ones' who were "destined" to do just the things they did, ie. that from the very beginning, there was this fate upon elves, and every individual elve's life kind of served this greater purpose.

Who knows, which way Tolkien himself intended this? Was it clear to him, from the very beginning, that elves would fill this role in his world, or was it so, that after all the things he had started and got going, this was the only way the things could come out? Or was there something like "poetic fatalism", that kind of saw and arranged this beforehand, and Tolkien just followed, realizing it only at a later stage?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

Of course, we have to be careful not to lay all the 'sin' at Galadriel's door. Tolkien states that this is an Elvish failing, not simply a 'Galadrien' one. Her ambition was higher than her compatriots, so she became greater, but consequently her 'sin' was greater. Its interesting that she 'passes' the test & is allowed to return into the West not because of her efforts in the battle against Sauron, not because of her struggles & sacrifices in the war, but because in the end she repents & chooses humility. It is only when she is prepared to 'diminish' (ie to let go of her dreams of power & become simply herself once more) that she is allowed to go home.

Originally Posted by lmp

If Tolkien considered his Elves' primary purpose to be the elevation of Man, then he did not write what he intended. All the reading I've done reveals that the Elves' primary purpose was subcreation; teaching Men was a by-product.

I'm just wondering on the idea of the Elves' 'purpose' being sub-creation. In a way, Galadriel leaves Valinor for Middle-earth as a result of sub-creation; Feanor is chasing his stolen, sub-created Silmarils and she is one of the group following. She then sub-creates her own realm, and like Feanor, is no stranger to the urges of ambition. By sub-creating, she (like Feanor) makes herself 'bigger'.

Elves are naturally at home in the Undying Lands, but this is a place where they would also presumably be unable to independently pursue the dream of having their own realm. Middle-earth must therefore be an attractive place to them for it not only has great beauty and is the place of the Elves' awakening, but it also offers the potential for independence that the Undying Lands cannot offer. Out of interest, Thingol also remains in Middle-earth and creates a 'magical' realm - I wonder if Galadriel was inspired by this in her wish to create Lothlorien?

[drigel]

Well, Elrond isn't all High Elf is he? so is his nostalgia tempered by his understanding of the Gift of Death? Or is he 'saved' from Galadriel's error by his understanding?

Granted, Galadriel is the only representation of High Elf in LOTR, with the exeption of a quick but intriguing glimpse at Glorfindel. But, I would agree with you Beth about Elrond. Being the progeny of Earendil does place him in a unique position, as far as his insight into mortals go. Yet, he too wields a ring. To what end?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Who knows, which way Tolkien himself intended this? Was it clear to him, from the very beginning, that elves would fill this role in his world, or was it so, that after all the things he had started and got going, this was the only way the things could come out? Or was there something like "poetic fatalism", that kind of saw and arranged this beforehand, and Tolkien just followed, realizing it only at a later stage?

The letter I reffered to predates even the publishing of LotR .

Originally Posted by Lalwende

Middle-earth ... also offers the potential for independence that the Undying Lands cannot offer.

Interestingly enough, that was Melkor's argument ;and as Mandos responds to this:

Originally Posted by Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

Thou speakest of thraldom. If thraldom it be, thou canst not escape it; for Manwe is King of Arda, and not of Aman only