LotR1-FotR-Seq12 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

alatar · 01-26-2006, 11:05 AM

By the by, no problem with the Aragorn/Boromir discussion in this thread, as I may have been the one who started it in the first place. Let's just try to draw from the sequence at hand or those preceding for examples when making a point - except when I just can't help myself and jump ahead a movie or two

.

Anyway, just wanted to point out that in this sequence, Boromir does not acknowledge Aragorn's kingship, which he does just before his death in Sequence 13. How he decides that Aragorn would be a "Lord of Gondor," I don't really get, and so can only speculate. Up to this time in the movie, the only thing that Aragorn has done on the plus side was to save Boromir's life in Moria. Yes, Aragorn leads them all into Lothlorien, but to me that's not enough to change Boromir's mind regarding this Ranger. Could it be that Boromir, in his despairing, wants Aragorn to be the saviour that he and his people have sought? Think about it: Boromir is trying to bring aid to his city, and sees the Ring or the Ranger as two possible solutions.

He's drowning, and so grasps at any hope. Aragorn has no siren song, and actually has stated that he doesn't want the responsibility. The Ring, on the other hand, assures Boromir that it can can bring victory. Boromir knows that the Ring might be lying, but he's still not sure. Galadriel most likely inflames the concern in Boromir's heart, and she may have made him even more desperate.

Elladan and Elrohir · 01-26-2006, 01:05 PM

I think that in the mentioned scene, Boromir is trying to get a compromise with Aragorn. He's basically saying, "No, you're not going to be king, but I'll accept you as my equal, as my fellow Lord of Gondor." By now he's spent substantial time with 'Gorn, 'Gorn's saved his life at least once, and so he's willing to extend the right hand of fellowship, though not (yet) willing to bow the knee. That's how I see it.

alatar · 01-26-2006, 02:50 PM

Elladan and Elrohir, I can buy that. Boromir is by nature friendly and honorable, and his actions in Rivendell may have been due more to disappointment with the place and his mission (sent by the Steward) than by Aragorn personally.

He also may have been a little angry in that some no name Ranger is dating Liv, while the Steward's son's off running errands and saving Gondor. Some guys have all of the luck!

PJ doesn't directly show the relationship building between Boromir and Aragorn, and skips over the same with Legolas and Gimli. I guess we're just to 'fill in' the gaps in the stories.

Nogrod · 01-26-2006, 03:37 PM

Even though it's been quite a while since I saw the film last time (a year or even two), I can't help commenting on this one.

I just see the relationship passing several stages in the movie (from Boromirs' point of view):
1) "Who do you think you are?" (at Rivendell, B is the big guy on his own opinion)
2) "We'll see, who's the guy!" (rivalry at journey, giving back Frodos' ring)
3) "I'm coming to like these lads via common endurance" (training with hobbits, Caradhras, Gate to Moria etc., humility, coming down from self- / Gondor-imposed heights, or at least friendship emerging)
4) "This guy saved my life, that's a big one!" (at Moria, the birth of real respect)
5) "You may think you are a king, and a mighty guy you are, but for pity's sake, be human like me, come down from your imagined throne!" (after Moria, trying to come even, trying to meet at common ground: "we are fellows, aren't we?"))
6) "Now this guy has some mighty friends - and they make me feel weak inside, they show me, my virtues aren't so high I've imagined, they make me reflect on things that are hurting me & my self-esteem" (at Lorien, especially with Galadriel, some reverence and friendly gestures to Aragorn)
7) "Saving Gondor is the thing, and this guy has the power. Let's make allies!" (at Anduin, remembering his basic goal & trying to fit it with his new adoration of Aragorn)
8) "So you won't back me? I'll have to do it my own!" then madness caused by the ring = unleash the rage and all that follows from it
9) Repentance, sacrifice, and asking for forgivenness + propably even trying to turn Aragorn to Minas Tirith as a last honourable deed from the stewards' son for his people ("My Captain, my King")

And just remembering a thing that has striked me in the movies. It is Boromir, who advances towards Aragorn with friendly intentions a couple of times (think f.ex. about the Rivendell scene in the extended version, where he tries to make friends etc.) and Aragorn always almost scorns him off (because of his internal battles that won't allow him to attach to anything, or care, or something?).

There sure is something weird in this.

It's not fool-proof, but something like a believable developement? How it compares to the book... that's a different question.

Sorry to enlarge this issue again out from the scene the discussion originally started.

Elladan and Elrohir · 01-27-2006, 08:02 PM

Nogrod, I think you make a good point about the relationship of Aragorn and Boromir. Boro is indeed the one who extends his hand, and 'Gorn always seems to want to draw back.

Of course, we know from the book that in their youth, Boromir's father Denethor was very hostile to Aragorn, and this may partially account for his reticence. I also think part of it has to do with Aragorn being introverted. Note that he can be very aggressive when he chooses (think Frodo at the Inn), but not here.

And, there may also be some pride involved. Aragorn is a self-deprecating figure ("The same blood flows through my veins. The same weakness."), and ironically, that's usually a sign of pride, not humility.

Aragorn's not willing to automatically make friends with a man of Gondor, the very kingdom he is destined to rule, because 1) this guy does not accept him, 2) this guy's father hated him, and 3) this guy shows early signs of being drawn to the Ring, the fault of Aragorn's ancestor Isildur and the fault of Men. Okay, so there's three reasons at least. Maybe pride isn't involved. What say ye?

Farael · 03-08-2006, 08:09 PM

Adding my two cents to a bit of an older discussion. This sequence is mostly alright. I don't specially like movie elves besides Legolas and Arwen (say what you may, but even if their characters are not like the ones in the book, they don't look like zombies most of the time)

Which leads me to my main point,

Most elves look like zombies, including some important ones.
Celeborn does, so does his wife (Galadriel). Elrond is not as bad, but then he's only half elven. Haldir is pretty aloof, but at least he shows SOME feeling... What about those elves walking up the stairs? is it just me or do they remind you of the dead walking through the caves on TTT (I know I'm jumping ahead, but still) But going back to my present rant which relates a little more to the actual scene...

Alright now, watch any other movie, you will see that the ones that are mostly unresponsive, stare and scare people away are the zombies! I just don't understand why PJ has decided to make the elves look even more than solemn. I could understand a very solemn Celeborn or Galadriel but why, oh why, do they have to look creepy?

And their words! Is Galadriel that lousy for giving a "pep talk" in the book? of course not! because Tolkien would have had to make half of his characters to commit suicide while the other half just curl up into the fetal position and wait for death to come to them.
"Your quest stands upon the edge of a knife, stray but a little and it will fail... to the ruin of all"
Is that how you encourage a group of people who are afraid, lost and have recenty gone through the traumatic experience of facing a Balrog and loosing their leader?

"Yet hope remains, while the company is true. Do not let your hearts be troubled, go now and rest...."
Oh, thanks... I mean, when you said all that stuff about knives and edges you had me scared for a moment, but now it's all good.

Sure, she says those exact words in the books as well... yet as a part of a much longer speech!!! Why does PJ try so hard to make everything look gloomy and terrible?

We see this happening all over the place. It seems that for every encouraging word Galadriel says, ten discouraging sentences are uttered.

To conclude this rant, another of my favourite pet-peeves.... Crazy Galadriel. Please, a green Galadriel was not called for! I could understand lots of light, I could understand her looking taller and threatening... but green? and why the two voices? does her voice not have enough strenght already? (I Think it does)
That little scene is (to me at least) clearly overkill. Sort of trying to show off "hey, check this cool FX we just bought!". I don't like it.

Ok, I think I shall stop here for now... sorry to dig up an oldie but this scene is one of my biggest pet-peaves

alatar · 03-11-2006, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farael

Most elves look like zombies, including some important ones.
Celeborn does, so does his wife (Galadriel). Elrond is not as bad, but then he's only half elven. Haldir is pretty aloof, but at least he shows SOME feeling... What about those elves walking up the stairs? is it just me or do they remind you of the dead walking through the caves on TTT (I know I'm jumping ahead, but still) But going back to my present rant which relates a little more to the actual scene...

I'm with you on that. The elves seen when the FotR are leaving Rivendell, with the exception of Arwen, look like billboards, and the Galadhrim that are walking up the steps are (1) CG and (2) rigid. Guess that's what you get when you cast for 'tall model types.'

"Walk like you're on the catwalk, but slowly...and ill paid."

Can't say that about Haldir, whom we will see in TTT.

01-26-2006, 11:05 AM	#1
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	By the by, no problem with the Aragorn/Boromir discussion in this thread, as I may have been the one who started it in the first place. Let's just try to draw from the sequence at hand or those preceding for examples when making a point - except when I just can't help myself and jump ahead a movie or two . Anyway, just wanted to point out that in this sequence, Boromir does not acknowledge Aragorn's kingship, which he does just before his death in Sequence 13. How he decides that Aragorn would be a "Lord of Gondor," I don't really get, and so can only speculate. Up to this time in the movie, the only thing that Aragorn has done on the plus side was to save Boromir's life in Moria. Yes, Aragorn leads them all into Lothlorien, but to me that's not enough to change Boromir's mind regarding this Ranger. Could it be that Boromir, in his despairing, wants Aragorn to be the saviour that he and his people have sought? Think about it: Boromir is trying to bring aid to his city, and sees the Ring or the Ranger as two possible solutions. He's drowning, and so grasps at any hope. Aragorn has no siren song, and actually has stated that he doesn't want the responsibility. The Ring, on the other hand, assures Boromir that it can can bring victory. Boromir knows that the Ring might be lying, but he's still not sure. Galadriel most likely inflames the concern in Boromir's heart, and she may have made him even more desperate. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

01-26-2006, 01:05 PM	#2
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	I think that in the mentioned scene, Boromir is trying to get a compromise with Aragorn. He's basically saying, "No, you're not going to be king, but I'll accept you as my equal, as my fellow Lord of Gondor." By now he's spent substantial time with 'Gorn, 'Gorn's saved his life at least once, and so he's willing to extend the right hand of fellowship, though not (yet) willing to bow the knee. That's how I see it. __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

01-26-2006, 02:50 PM	#3
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Elladan and Elrohir, I can buy that. Boromir is by nature friendly and honorable, and his actions in Rivendell may have been due more to disappointment with the place and his mission (sent by the Steward) than by Aragorn personally. He also may have been a little angry in that some no name Ranger is dating Liv, while the Steward's son's off running errands and saving Gondor. Some guys have all of the luck! PJ doesn't directly show the relationship building between Boromir and Aragorn, and skips over the same with Legolas and Gimli. I guess we're just to 'fill in' the gaps in the stories. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

01-27-2006, 08:02 PM	#5
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	Nogrod, I think you make a good point about the relationship of Aragorn and Boromir. Boro is indeed the one who extends his hand, and 'Gorn always seems to want to draw back. Of course, we know from the book that in their youth, Boromir's father Denethor was very hostile to Aragorn, and this may partially account for his reticence. I also think part of it has to do with Aragorn being introverted. Note that he can be very aggressive when he chooses (think Frodo at the Inn), but not here. And, there may also be some pride involved. Aragorn is a self-deprecating figure ("The same blood flows through my veins. The same weakness."), and ironically, that's usually a sign of pride, not humility. Aragorn's not willing to automatically make friends with a man of Gondor, the very kingdom he is destined to rule, because 1) this guy does not accept him, 2) this guy's father hated him, and 3) this guy shows early signs of being drawn to the Ring, the fault of Aragorn's ancestor Isildur and the fault of Men. Okay, so there's three reasons at least. Maybe pride isn't involved. What say ye? __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

03-08-2006, 08:09 PM	#6
Farael Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment. Posts: 1,538	Adding my two cents to a bit of an older discussion. This sequence is mostly alright. I don't specially like movie elves besides Legolas and Arwen (say what you may, but even if their characters are not like the ones in the book, they don't look like zombies most of the time) Which leads me to my main point, Most elves look like zombies, including some important ones. Celeborn does, so does his wife (Galadriel). Elrond is not as bad, but then he's only half elven. Haldir is pretty aloof, but at least he shows SOME feeling... What about those elves walking up the stairs? is it just me or do they remind you of the dead walking through the caves on TTT (I know I'm jumping ahead, but still) But going back to my present rant which relates a little more to the actual scene... Alright now, watch any other movie, you will see that the ones that are mostly unresponsive, stare and scare people away are the zombies! I just don't understand why PJ has decided to make the elves look even more than solemn. I could understand a very solemn Celeborn or Galadriel but why, oh why, do they have to look creepy? And their words! Is Galadriel that lousy for giving a "pep talk" in the book? of course not! because Tolkien would have had to make half of his characters to commit suicide while the other half just curl up into the fetal position and wait for death to come to them. "Your quest stands upon the edge of a knife, stray but a little and it will fail... to the ruin of all" Is that how you encourage a group of people who are afraid, lost and have recenty gone through the traumatic experience of facing a Balrog and loosing their leader? "Yet hope remains, while the company is true. Do not let your hearts be troubled, go now and rest...." Oh, thanks... I mean, when you said all that stuff about knives and edges you had me scared for a moment, but now it's all good. Sure, she says those exact words in the books as well... yet as a part of a much longer speech!!! Why does PJ try so hard to make everything look gloomy and terrible? We see this happening all over the place. It seems that for every encouraging word Galadriel says, ten discouraging sentences are uttered. To conclude this rant, another of my favourite pet-peeves.... Crazy Galadriel. Please, a green Galadriel was not called for! I could understand lots of light, I could understand her looking taller and threatening... but green? and why the two voices? does her voice not have enough strenght already? (I Think it does) That little scene is (to me at least) clearly overkill. Sort of trying to show off "hey, check this cool FX we just bought!". I don't like it. Ok, I think I shall stop here for now... sorry to dig up an oldie but this scene is one of my biggest pet-peaves __________________ I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.

01-26-2006, 03:37 PM	#4
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,308	Even though it's been quite a while since I saw the film last time (a year or even two), I can't help commenting on this one. I just see the relationship passing several stages in the movie (from Boromirs' point of view): 1) "Who do you think you are?" (at Rivendell, B is the big guy on his own opinion) 2) "We'll see, who's the guy!" (rivalry at journey, giving back Frodos' ring) 3) "I'm coming to like these lads via common endurance" (training with hobbits, Caradhras, Gate to Moria etc., humility, coming down from self- / Gondor-imposed heights, or at least friendship emerging) 4) "This guy saved my life, that's a big one!" (at Moria, the birth of real respect) 5) "You may think you are a king, and a mighty guy you are, but for pity's sake, be human like me, come down from your imagined throne!" (after Moria, trying to come even, trying to meet at common ground: "we are fellows, aren't we?")) 6) "Now this guy has some mighty friends - and they make me feel weak inside, they show me, my virtues aren't so high I've imagined, they make me reflect on things that are hurting me & my self-esteem" (at Lorien, especially with Galadriel, some reverence and friendly gestures to Aragorn) 7) "Saving Gondor is the thing, and this guy has the power. Let's make allies!" (at Anduin, remembering his basic goal & trying to fit it with his new adoration of Aragorn) 8) "So you won't back me? I'll have to do it my own!" then madness caused by the ring = unleash the rage and all that follows from it 9) Repentance, sacrifice, and asking for forgivenness + propably even trying to turn Aragorn to Minas Tirith as a last honourable deed from the stewards' son for his people ("My Captain, my King") And just remembering a thing that has striked me in the movies. It is Boromir, who advances towards Aragorn with friendly intentions a couple of times (think f.ex. about the Rivendell scene in the extended version, where he tries to make friends etc.) and Aragorn always almost scorns him off (because of his internal battles that won't allow him to attach to anything, or care, or something?). There sure is something weird in this. It's not fool-proof, but something like a believable developement? How it compares to the book... that's a different question. Sorry to enlarge this issue again out from the scene the discussion originally started.