Tolkien over others

[Boromir88]

There are a couple things Tolkien does that stands out from other authors that I've read.

At this current time, I'm actually not reading any Tolkien, I'm reading The Chronicles of Narnia (for the first time). I finished The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe and am about to start Prince Caspian. Now I enjoyed reading C.S. Lewis, but I just didn't get the same feel as when I read LOTR. Maybe it would have been better if I read it when I was a kid, but to me The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe just seemed childish. Before that, I read The Hobbit (for the first time), and though that's a book for "children" it really didn't seem childish. When I read LOTR, though it is a fantasy, it just seem real, and seems like something that's believable. The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe just didn't seem real.

There is this certain characteristic of a book called plausibility...does the story make sense, is the story believable? Not even believable in our own world, but believable within the book. When I read TLTWTW, in Narnia I just got a sense that anything can happen and certain things seem unbelievable, it's like Lewis' characters are superhumans and can withstand anything.

When I read LOTR, though there is "magic" in the stories, and certain characters seem unstoppable, everything and everyone has limits. NOTHING or NOONE is all-powerful/superhuman (besides Eru)...even the Ring can be defeated. Gandalf can't sit their and launch 50 fireballs, he gets tired, he gets physically worn down. Everything has limits. When I read The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe, I just didn't get that feeling of plausibility that LOTR has.

Another thing I think Tolkien works well with, and one of my biggest attractions to books (as well as movies) are the characters. Tolkien gives all of his characters a mind of their own. He reiterates it in a letter that I forget, I'll see if I can find it when he's talking about Treebeard, in that that's Treebeards opinion on why trolls were created "in mockery of ents" and that isn't necessarily the truth but Treebeard's own opinion. In Tolkien he gives each of his characters their own minds and their own personalities.

For example, I'm going to take Hama and Beregond. Both of whom are servants/guards of their lords. However, despite being guards, they aren't like the typical "guard of a lord" which are mindless robots that say "yes master." They are both able to judge for themselves what the right thing to do is. Though an order was made that Gandalf had to set aside his staff, Hama made up his own mind and through his own judgement let Gandalf in with his staff. Beregond I hope I really don't have to explain, he disobeys his lord, kills people just to save the Captain who he is so fond of. Everyone in Tolkien has a mind of their own and are able to make their own decisions...again not being mindless robots..."Yes lord."

Anwyay, those are the things that I think puts Tolkien above other authors I have read.

[narfforc]

One of things I find remarkable about The Works Of Tolkien, is their depth. Pick up LotR and turn to any page, and I am willing to bet, that most names of people or places have a history. They do not just appear, there is a link to something else somewhere. There are also mysteries of people or places mentioned, that we can only imagine and discuss on these very pages. The other houses of the Dwarflords, those not of Durins Line, the other Istari, there are so many more things we could have been told, and our hunger burns. I think for me also, I see LotR as one of those stories that could easily fit in the gap between Legend and Myth. It is almost semi-believeable, one would not be amazed if Arthur or CuCulainn appeared followed by Merlin and Angus Og. Many people on a subliminal level recognise this link to our own history of storytelling, and Tolkien has been rightly called The Last Bard. The story Tolkien has created is probably the last great story ever told, and as much as people try and imitate (pick the names yourself), the efforts are but weak copies in many cases. I called this A Never Ending Story because I believe it is, I have read countless stories of The Fourth Age, of obscure times and people, written by people like us for people like us (no harm in that). It is through us this story will continue and grow. To say that the works of Tolkien are engraved in my being is an understatement, I feel nothing like that for any other written word.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by narfforc

The story Tolkien has created is probably the last great story ever told, and as much as people try and imitate (pick the names yourself), the efforts are but weak copies in many cases. I called this A Never Ending Story because I believe it is, I have read countless stories of The Fourth Age, of obscure times and people, written by people like us for people like us (no harm in that). It is through us this story will continue and grow. To say that the works of Tolkien are engraved in my being is an understatement, I feel nothing like that for any other written word.

Oh my gosh, narfforc, for a moment there I thought you had LotR confused with that Biblical epic The Greatest Story Ever Told but then I realised you meant simply that it is the last great one written. I sure wouldn't think Tolkien would like any graven images made of his work.

[Anguirel]

Is anyone else getting a Tolkien, Tolkien, uber alles vibe from this thread??

Anschluss with Narnia!

[Child of the 7th Age]

A number of posters have made excellent statements about what they see in Tolkien that is outstanding or unique: believable characters, plausibility of plot and world, terrific plot, and appropriateness of language. I could second many of these points. Yet, for me, there is something more going on. Perhaps, Mythopoeia summed it up best. It isn't the characteristics that I see and admire in Tolkien that defines his importance as a writer. Rather it is the personal impact--intellectual, emotional, and imaginative--that those writings have had on me over the years. And it has, indeed, been many years!

I can name individual fantasy writers who made skillful use of language or others who do an excellent job with plotting. Yet, when you get right down to it, I can think of no other creator of myth who so hits me in the solar plexus as Tolkien. My reading of LotR and the wider Legendarium has always been tangled up with my search to find myself. With other fantasy writers, I am reading about someplace far away, a distant and exotic world that is very attractive and holds me spellbound for a given space of time. I set the book down, and the spell ends. With Tolkien, the characters and situations have a much more intimate meaning--they speak to my own personal situations and needs. Because of that, the impact of the writings linger long after I've turned the last page.

I grew up in a tight and loving working class family. My dad was a factory worker. It was a world with great depth, but also a very narrow world. I was searching for a way out. Like Samwise, I was chasing after Elves and Dragons in a culture that was fixed on meat and potatoes. I could identify with Sam and other characters in Lord of the Rings in a way that was immediate and personal. There were other times in life when I was going through periods of definition or struggle. And often in those situations I reread Tolkien and found some episode or character that spoke to me on a personal level. It wasn't just the surface action that attracted me: it was the values and meaning that framed and stood behind those actions. From year to year, my point of interest changed. Sometimes it was Tolkien's loving descriptions of the earth, the struggles that Frodo endured, or the implicit sprituality that shines through certain characters and their ethical choices. But always there was something worth looking at.

I have read a ton of fantasy over the years, starting in the mid-sixties. That was when the Ballentine series came out, along with Ace, Daw, and DelRey, the major providers of fantasy and sf. I've found many authors I've enjoyed to the hilt, but few have made as personal impact an impact as Tolkien. The one other fantasy author I would put in this category, and Cailin mentioned him earlier, is T.H. White and The Once and Future King. Interestingly, I recently ran across an interview with Shippey where he talks about his own affinity for White and how White and Tolkien were in some sense similar. Both authors were affected and repelled by the horrors of war in the 20th century, yet recognized the fact that the conditions we face in the world sometimes require good men to stand up and fight. In both White and Tolkien, I sense what difficult dilemmas the world sometimes presents to us and, as I get older, I gain greater appreciation of how these two authors managed to encapsulate this dilemma in the actions and choices of their characters.

[Anguirel]

I am completely with Child about The Once and Future King. However, while many people admire The Sword in the Stone most out of the TH White novels, I must admit to find it, with the posthumously published Book of Merlyn, not nearly as thrilling as the others. The Malory influence is less pervasive, the authorial pieces of fancifulness rather too numerous, the childishness avoiding any real sense of danger, the appearance of Robin Wood in retrospect rather annoying. (Though White's take on Kay's character is fascinating.)

The Queen of Air and Darkness, for me, was a real improvement. Battles, vast battles. O Scotland, Scotland. The appearance of the family I most enjoy reading of in White and Malory, the Orkney brothers, Gawaine, Gaheris, Agravaine and Mordred. And in their mother, Morgause, a character of spine-curdling beauty begging to be fleshed out. White described Gawaine as "a swine with a stroke of human decency". I would describe him as "my favourite figure in legend or literature".

In the Ill-Made Knight, we see an almost unique construction-the character of Chretien de Troyes' Lancelot modelled first in Malory's image, then in White's. The result is a Lancelot far more likeable than Malory's or Tennyson's, a truly self-doubting creature. The Candle in the Wind lays the blame for Arthur's downfall too heavily on the orkney's, but it is nonetheless incredibly tragic and moving.

So...yes, I would put White beside the completely dissimilar Tolkien. They also had this in common. Both left trails, irresistable to me, to wider mythologies; White to Malory's vast yet thoroughly readable, sometimes even touchingly personal, Le Morte D'Arthur; Tolkien of course to the Silmarillion. Devouring both of these, I was not alone in comparing the sons of Feanor to those of Lot and Morgause. I felt great sympathy for both families. I desperately wanted to see them redeemed, but knew I couldn't.

Couldn't with Tolkien anyway. But even Malory, great though he is, is just one slant, though indisputably the most comprehensive, on King Arthur. So was born my Gawain novel, working title Hawk of May till I dispiritedly discovered some American lady novelist had pinched it already. Expect it 2038 approx...

In conclusion, the greatest fantasy writer is Malory. Then Edmund Spenser. Then conceivably Tolkien/White...

[narfforc]

It has ever been difficult for me to place my love of all things Arthurian, behind that of Tolkien. I came to read Tolkien after reading childrens books on Arthur ie Roger Lancelyn Green. My interest has grown apace, until I have well over fifty books on the subject of Arthur. I agree with Anguirel, that Malory is a great story teller (one of the best), yet he had source material, on which he expanded. Tolkien took a blueprint and wrote his own story. I am sorry to hear of your Hawk of May story, I have a copy of the Gillian Bradshaw book, and on the back it reads: WILL APPEAL TO THOSE WHO HAVE ENJOYED TOLKIEN'S WORKS. Let me say it did.

P.S Sorry Bethberry but I don't see the Bible as the Greatest Story Ever Told. It is The Greatest Myth Ever Invented.