LotR1-FotR-Seq11 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Tuor of Gondolin · 01-19-2006, 07:36 AM

Quote:

He realised his attack was not going to plan - and had to refocus his attack before it was too late. The Wizard could wait - he had other eggs to fry.

That's correct. But it's also unclear what would
have been the result of an encounter at the
gates between the Wirch-king and Gandalf.
Both had grown in power since FOTR.

And the way the orcs ran away in movie FOTR in
Moria was irritating. You can presume that
Gandalf would have used some magic, but even
with Strider, Boromir, Leggy and the three
brave hobbits (Frodo fainting?

) would have been
hard-pressed to cut through hundreds of orcsees.
In the book they "parted" to let the balrog through,
I don't believe they ran away.

Essex · 01-19-2006, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

That's correct. But it's also unclear what would have been the result of an encounter at the gates between the Wirch-king and Gandalf. Both had grown in power since FOTR.

Ok, but that wasn't my point - just explaining why he left, both movie and book wise, not on the possible outcome of the fight.

Quote:

And the way the orcs ran away in movie FOTR in Moria was irritating......In the book they "parted" to let the balrog through, I don't believe they ran away.

I can read "crowded away, as if they themselves were afraid" as running. It is a moot point really, and I don't think anyone would lose any sleep over it to be honest!

alatar · 01-19-2006, 10:06 AM

Though I wasn't bugged about the orcs running from the Balrog, I would say that it doesn't exactly follow the books. My interpretation is that the Balrog is the commander, and so pushes the Orcs and troll forward to fight the Fellowship. It's only after they fail does he enter the fray.

Don't have the book, but listening to the CD, I remember that the troll tries to enter the chamber door first, gets a sword blow from Boromir (which is ineffective), gets stuck by a Sting-wielding Frodo (would have loved to have seen that) and so withdraws. The orcs enter next and are overwhelmed by the defense. The orc chieftain attacks Frodo and is cut down by Aragorn. The FotR makes to leave out the back door when Gandalf perceives the 'other.' He stays and attempts to shut the door, but the Balrog comes into the chamber and starts a counter spell. Gandalf is strained, and so has to use a word of command, which destroys the door and cuts off the pursuit. Momentarily he gets a glimpse of some dark presence, but does not know what it is at that time.

In the movie, when Gandalf sternly tells Aragorn that "swords are no more use here," they are positioned correctly (at the top of a stair) but Gandalf has no door to shut, nor does it seem that the Balrog tries to come through that way. Too big, perhaps? Some action, I assume, from the Balrog starts busting up the place, and this actually helps Aragorn and Frodo get over the gap in the stair. No action by Gandalf to cut off the pursuit. Was it a timing issue, or did PJ not want to show Gandalf as that able?

Anyway...similar, yet different

.

Another point: I thought that Gimli standing on Balin's tomb was disrespectful, but the book states that Gandalf uses it as a table when he reads the account of the dwarf colony, and so it's not treated that respectfully. Plus, Gimli chops the legs of an orc who stands on Balin's tomb, and again I think that PJ only wanted to place Gimli where he could be seen when he delivered his lines, as it's a stupid place from which to fight.

Essex · 01-19-2006, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alatar

I think that PJ only wanted to place Gimli where he could be seen when he delivered his lines, as it's a stupid place from which to fight.

Is it? Try telling that to Anakin Skywalker. Obi Wan 'had the higher ground' and therefore beat him.

Our strudy dwarf also has the higher ground here by standing on Balin's tomb. I'm sure Balin wouldn't have minded......... He's putting a stake in the gorund, implying that he is guarding Balin's tomb. ie you'll have to come through me first before you desecrate his tomb. etc, etc.

and re:

Quote:

My interpretation is that the Balrog is the commander, and so pushes the Orcs and troll forward to fight the Fellowship. It's only after they fail does he enter the fray.

My interpretation is that he comes down via the other route after his first is blocked off by Gandalf's word of Command. He wasn't waiting for the orcs to attack - He was just travelling another route!!!!!

PS - why people moan about things like this (ie the orcs ran away) is nit picking to me. Yes, I know we're all entitled to our opinions, but all I seem to be doing is defending Jackson and his crew to the many (samll) issues people have with the films and not having enough time to praise his filmaking myself!!!!!

PPS Talking about what's good with these scenes, it's good to see the man who will be King taking over directly after Gandalf had Fallen. Getting the hobbits up - realising there is little time for mourning and taking over command of the troop.

PPPS - doesn't the Balrog look great? Not sure what Boromir meant by saying it was inaccurate (size maybe?) - we're not going to get into another balrog wings argument are we? (I stayed clear of the recent thread on this!)

PPPPS - the discussion between gandalf and frodo - works really well here - I don't mind it not being in Bag end as it is in the books. It's like Gandalf is imparting his last piece of wisdom onto Frodo...............

PPPPPS - I agree with alatar that the stairs scene is not required. I would have loved to have seen Gandalf battle Spell wise with the (unseen) Balrog instead.....I've always been fascinated by what the 'Words of Command' were - and what their actual power was.

PPPPPPS - badly structured note here - too many PS's.

alatar · 01-19-2006, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essex

and re: My interpretation is that he comes down via the other route after his first is blocked off by Gandalf's word of Command. He wasn't waiting for the orcs to attack - He was just travelling another route!!!!!

I'll have to rely on you to supply the direct quote, but in the book the Balrog is first 'seen' in the Chamber of Mazarbul, and this only after the fighting and just before the WoC destroys the door. However, if you mean that the Balrog would have joined in the initial attack with the orcs and troll but was late arriving at the Chamber, then I can allow for that.

But in other news...why did PJ have wooden doors in a place made of stone? My impression of Moria is that, with few exceptions, everything is made of stone, ore, metal etc. And I forgot that the pillars seen holding up the celing were carved to appear as trees, but I can understand why PJ didn't portray them that way - tree = elf, geometric shapes - dwarf.

alatar · 04-03-2006, 12:51 PM

At my son's request, we listened to LotR on CD as we ran errands. Not sure that he knew what he was asking for, I chose the Bridge of Khazad-dûm chapter as then he would have some reference point (we'd played out the scene many times). Anyway, as I listened, I heard again that when the FotR minus Gandalf leave Moria that they go down some steps onto a road perhaps. PJ's East Gate of Moria is just not right. I think that maybe he was trying to use a natural real world location, but one would think that this being a dwarven capital that the area outside of the gate would have had some landscaping and stonework, even in these years of decay.

What came to mind was the Lost City, home of the sleestaks.

Nogrod · 04-03-2006, 02:38 PM

I guess this is one of the sequences, that really highlights PJ's insistence to make Merry, Pip and Gimli something like fools - and I really don't like it. I can see, that there are very simple-minded people out there, and they are potential ticket payers too. But c'mon! Why do you have to a) make someone a fool at first to show that he has matured during the adventure? b) have a fool in a movie in the first place? The roles of these three are in the worst instance like copied from a Disney film, where there always has to be those good and bad fool-servants...

About the Balrog and the orcs / goblins. I could see their relation along the lines of a lion and the hyenas. Hyenas will follow and fear it. That metaphor should not be stretched forwards though, as it breaks immediately after stating this basic fact.

Otherwise, its funny how perceptions change with knowledge. As I first time saw the movie, I thought the Balrog to be just a ME version of the Jurassic Park T-Rex, and was a bit disappointed. But after seeing the "making of"-stuff on the dvd, with all that stone and fire -thing, I started to appreciate it, kind of started to see, what it was all about - and both saw and heard it differently...

Also, I seem to belong to those people who think that the cavetroll thing was a bit farfetched and overemphasized. Basically just a tool to justify an action scene with swordplay and lots of tight situations - showing simultaneously some abilities of the members of the fellowship with it. But as I understand the anguish of Alatar's children, I myself really liked the portrayal of the death of the troll - it was so... humane (NO!) ... so...? The sound of it dying was awesome (what was it: a walrus and a backwards-tiger or something?) and kind of made me sad also!

The staircase that goes tumbling down and leaving the heroes in a tight situation and a last moment escape... Maybe decent actionfilm-wise, Tolkienwise, no. But the Maori-music was great there! (Indeed, if you listen to it with Finninsh ears, you hear them singing repeatedly "musta-musta-musta"... - in Finninsh that means "black-black-black"...

)

01-19-2006, 10:06 AM	#3
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Though I wasn't bugged about the orcs running from the Balrog, I would say that it doesn't exactly follow the books. My interpretation is that the Balrog is the commander, and so pushes the Orcs and troll forward to fight the Fellowship. It's only after they fail does he enter the fray. Don't have the book, but listening to the CD, I remember that the troll tries to enter the chamber door first, gets a sword blow from Boromir (which is ineffective), gets stuck by a Sting-wielding Frodo (would have loved to have seen that) and so withdraws. The orcs enter next and are overwhelmed by the defense. The orc chieftain attacks Frodo and is cut down by Aragorn. The FotR makes to leave out the back door when Gandalf perceives the 'other.' He stays and attempts to shut the door, but the Balrog comes into the chamber and starts a counter spell. Gandalf is strained, and so has to use a word of command, which destroys the door and cuts off the pursuit. Momentarily he gets a glimpse of some dark presence, but does not know what it is at that time. In the movie, when Gandalf sternly tells Aragorn that "swords are no more use here," they are positioned correctly (at the top of a stair) but Gandalf has no door to shut, nor does it seem that the Balrog tries to come through that way. Too big, perhaps? Some action, I assume, from the Balrog starts busting up the place, and this actually helps Aragorn and Frodo get over the gap in the stair. No action by Gandalf to cut off the pursuit. Was it a timing issue, or did PJ not want to show Gandalf as that able? Anyway...similar, yet different . Another point: I thought that Gimli standing on Balin's tomb was disrespectful, but the book states that Gandalf uses it as a table when he reads the account of the dwarf colony, and so it's not treated that respectfully. Plus, Gimli chops the legs of an orc who stands on Balin's tomb, and again I think that PJ only wanted to place Gimli where he could be seen when he delivered his lines, as it's a stupid place from which to fight. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

04-03-2006, 12:51 PM	#6
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	At my son's request, we listened to LotR on CD as we ran errands. Not sure that he knew what he was asking for, I chose the Bridge of Khazad-dûm chapter as then he would have some reference point (we'd played out the scene many times). Anyway, as I listened, I heard again that when the FotR minus Gandalf leave Moria that they go down some steps onto a road perhaps. PJ's East Gate of Moria is just not right. I think that maybe he was trying to use a natural real world location, but one would think that this being a dwarven capital that the area outside of the gate would have had some landscaping and stonework, even in these years of decay. What came to mind was the Lost City, home of the sleestaks. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

04-03-2006, 02:38 PM	#7
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,308	I guess this is one of the sequences, that really highlights PJ's insistence to make Merry, Pip and Gimli something like fools - and I really don't like it. I can see, that there are very simple-minded people out there, and they are potential ticket payers too. But c'mon! Why do you have to a) make someone a fool at first to show that he has matured during the adventure? b) have a fool in a movie in the first place? The roles of these three are in the worst instance like copied from a Disney film, where there always has to be those good and bad fool-servants... About the Balrog and the orcs / goblins. I could see their relation along the lines of a lion and the hyenas. Hyenas will follow and fear it. That metaphor should not be stretched forwards though, as it breaks immediately after stating this basic fact. Otherwise, its funny how perceptions change with knowledge. As I first time saw the movie, I thought the Balrog to be just a ME version of the Jurassic Park T-Rex, and was a bit disappointed. But after seeing the "making of"-stuff on the dvd, with all that stone and fire -thing, I started to appreciate it, kind of started to see, what it was all about - and both saw and heard it differently... Also, I seem to belong to those people who think that the cavetroll thing was a bit farfetched and overemphasized. Basically just a tool to justify an action scene with swordplay and lots of tight situations - showing simultaneously some abilities of the members of the fellowship with it. But as I understand the anguish of Alatar's children, I myself really liked the portrayal of the death of the troll - it was so... humane (NO!) ... so...? The sound of it dying was awesome (what was it: a walrus and a backwards-tiger or something?) and kind of made me sad also! The staircase that goes tumbling down and leaving the heroes in a tight situation and a last moment escape... Maybe decent actionfilm-wise, Tolkienwise, no. But the Maori-music was great there! (Indeed, if you listen to it with Finninsh ears, you hear them singing repeatedly "musta-musta-musta"... - in Finninsh that means "black-black-black"... ) __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...