Middle Earth "afterlife" - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Bergil · 12-21-2005, 06:47 PM

ELVES (good and bad) go to the halls of mandos. No-one (possibly not even the valar) know where peiple go. As you're newer (weaker in convincing people) then me, I won't argue real-world theology with you.

Rune Son of Bjarne · 12-21-2005, 07:03 PM

As Bergil says all elves goes to the halls of Mandos, unless they chose mortalety.They are not decribet as good or bad place to be, infact I beliv if you have been "good" you might get reincarnated. I see it more as a neutral place. . .

Legolas · 12-21-2005, 07:07 PM

Mandos is really just a place of waiting. It's more like purgatory than heaven or hell. There is no 'heaven and hell' for elves. Not until the end of the world, anyway. As long as Arda exists, they remain inside.

Elves cannot 'choose mortality.' They can be slain, and die from grief. That is all.

Gothmog · 12-22-2005, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Elves cannot 'choose mortality.' They can be slain, and die from grief. That is all.

Actually they can. Take Luthien for example! She chose to become mortal and live her last years together with Beren. It was more complex than just choosing mortality, but that was the outcome of it. Because of her "labours and her sorrow" Iluvatar himself (through Manwe) gave her the choice to go back to ME as a mortal. It had never been granted before and haven't since, but it is possible to become mortal.

Elros and Arwen also chose mortality, but as there's Man-blood in their veins they might be a special case.

I think Captain Grishnahk offers us an interesting question concerning orcs, a question I've wondered about myself. If we go by the corrupted-elf theory, should they go to the halls of Mandos? I can't imagin filthy orcs in the halls were all the waiting elves dwells... But do they leave the confines of the world, like men? The unknown fate of the men was considered a gift, so why would the orcs be granted such a gift? I think I've heard a theory that stated that the orcs came to the Halls of Mandos, but to a part separated from the elven halls, but I don't know if it was based on any real information from Tolkien.

And what happens to the dogs? And cows and horses and cats and.... Do they just disappear? And what about Ents and Eagles, both inhabited by "spirits from afar", do they go to Valinor when they're physical body die? There's much to discuss in this topic...

If we assume that animals just disappear, that should been htat they are considered soul-less, or am I wrong? But what about a horse like Shadowfax, can he be considered nothing more than a transport from point A to point B? I think not.

Someone of the Masters in Lore of Tolkien on the site, please help me out here!

**The Saucepan Man** · 12-22-2005, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gothmog

Someone of the Masters in Lore of Tolkien on the site, please help me out here!

Well, if you're done disputing with him, Legolas might help you out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legolas

Elves cannot 'choose mortality.'

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gothmog

Actually they can.

I believe that Legolas' point was that Elves are not themselves able to choose between mortality and immortality. They are immortal by default. The choice was granted only to a select few (none of whom were of pure Elvish blood), by the grace of Eru Iluvatar.

Hookbill the Goomba · 12-22-2005, 08:03 AM

I know that it's not the afterlife, but according to this Elvish translator, 'Hell' is translated as 'Angband'.

I don't know about Elves, but I seem to remember that when Saruman died, he tried to return to the West, but was denied. I would assume that he was cast into the Void. Ergo, I would make the assumption that the Void is the 'Hell' of Arda and is reserved for the evil Maiar and Valar.

Farael · 12-22-2005, 01:23 PM

Well, as much as I cannot say that Eru is G'd, I shan't say that there actually IS a heaven or hell. Valinor is probably as close to heaven as it gets in Arda. A perfect land in which nothing ever decays and where the gods (Valar) live. I guess the notion of hell is shown both in evil on earth (Hell being translated to Angband) and the void. We should note that the void is not exactly a place of punishment, besides that whoever is in the void cannot go back to Arda and so all the power and everything the 'voidee' has done in Middle Earth is lost for him.

I guess it is more of a psychological punishment (you can't go back even though you want to) than a fiery hell.

That's my point of view, although I might be mistaken in the notion of hell as I must say I don't believe in it.

12-21-2005, 06:47 PM	#1
Bergil Wight Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: the Lepetomaine Gambling Casino For The Insane Posts: 157	you're not quite right. ELVES (good and bad) go to the halls of mandos. No-one (possibly not even the valar) know where peiple go. As you're newer (weaker in convincing people) then me, I won't argue real-world theology with you. __________________ I support...something.

12-21-2005, 07:07 PM	#3
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Mandos is really just a place of waiting. It's more like purgatory than heaven or hell. There is no 'heaven and hell' for elves. Not until the end of the world, anyway. As long as Arda exists, they remain inside. Elves cannot 'choose mortality.' They can be slain, and die from grief. That is all. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

12-22-2005, 08:03 AM	#6
Hookbill the Goomba Alive without breath Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla Posts: 5,912	I know that it's not the afterlife, but according to this Elvish translator, 'Hell' is translated as 'Angband'. I don't know about Elves, but I seem to remember that when Saruman died, he tried to return to the West, but was denied. I would assume that he was cast into the Void. Ergo, I would make the assumption that the Void is the 'Hell' of Arda and is reserved for the evil Maiar and Valar. __________________ I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket...

12-22-2005, 01:23 PM	#7
Farael Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment. Posts: 1,538	Well, as much as I cannot say that Eru is G'd, I shan't say that there actually IS a heaven or hell. Valinor is probably as close to heaven as it gets in Arda. A perfect land in which nothing ever decays and where the gods (Valar) live. I guess the notion of hell is shown both in evil on earth (Hell being translated to Angband) and the void. We should note that the void is not exactly a place of punishment, besides that whoever is in the void cannot go back to Arda and so all the power and everything the 'voidee' has done in Middle Earth is lost for him. I guess it is more of a psychological punishment (you can't go back even though you want to) than a fiery hell. That's my point of view, although I might be mistaken in the notion of hell as I must say I don't believe in it.