Sauron and collectivism

[littlemanpoet]

Some of what you seem to be trying for, Lalwendë, could be handled by distinguishing between:

• collectivist - a socio/economic philosophy
• collectives - a socio/economic entity based on the philosophy
• collections - or group; in this case, of people; at best when functioning as community . . . which is what it does in The Shire

[Bergil]

[quote]Really!?!?!? Don't forget about Karl Marx.[/quote}

that's called either communism or socialism, depending who you ask. I fear I have nothing of impportance to say, except that I agree with the "winston and his gang" quote.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Bergil

that's called either communism or socialism, depending who you ask. I fear I have nothing of impportance to say, except that I agree with the "winston and his gang" quote.

It is both !

As you know Karl Marx wrote (with help from Friedrich Engels) the communist manifesto. In wich he describes the way to Communism (and eventually anarchism). The path start's at the Feudal society wich is then removed by a bourgeois revolution leading to capitalism, then the Communist revolution, but a society does not become communist just like that and until you have real communism you are only at a stage of soicalism.

Another difference is that Comunisme can never be reached by reforms, Socialism on the other hand can.

(look at Scandinavia we are democratic socialists/reformed socialists. Even the conservative and liberals have to accept this otherwise they have no chance of winning the elections)

EDIT: POST 700 YAY !

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

In one sense, Tolkien has Utopian ideals (though I'm not so sure his books are exactly Utopian!), he certainly has a purist, Utopian vision of what Anarchism means. He dislikes the idea that a small group of people can control the population, and can see that a hierarchy and a complex state can lead to loss of individuality. Though I do doubt how far he really does like the idea of Anarchy. It would mean that there would be no rulers, no class system, and it would mean the introduction of...collectivism. But this would be collectivism as seen on Kibbutzes, where the community works together to achieve what it needs for survival (in modern terms, if we had it, we might all take it in turns to empty the bins, care for the elderly, teach the kids, mend the roads etc). However, it does appear that in The Shire there could be such an idea in practice at its most simple level, community spirit.

I agree in most of what you are saying.

I belive that Tolkien was fond of the idear of anarchisme in it's final form. Where you live in small comunities (like the Shire) with no regualation from above. The communeties will probalby be ruled by direct democracy, wich means that everybody decides what to do. When all of the world is devidet in these small comuneties, you might ask your self what is to stop these comuneties from trying to attack each other. Well the same reson nations in the EU does not want to go to war against one another: Economical interdependency if they are all dependent one another you really don't want to risk anything by going to war. I dont know if Tolkien wantet to remove the monetary system, but that would normaly allso be a part of anarchism.

What I find funny is that Tolkien clearly is not thrilled about Comunism, but the mather of fact is that when comunism reaches it's final state and there is no more capitalism and socialism in the world. Then according to theory the communist the state will move one to the next stage Anarchism. ( Because when differentiation between classes disappear, so too will the state disappear.)

P.S: I don't think that any anarchist theory has statet that people had to take turns at doing the differen activities.