The Dunedain - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Afrodal Fenyar · 05-09-2003, 10:45 AM

Hey, think about it: you were beaten by a great king of men over 3000 years ago, you've been fighting a war with his people for generations, and right when you think you're winning, the king's heir returns to claim the throne and really fight a war with you, when you thought there were no king anymore.

It sure also had some strategic importance. Gondor didn't need a king very badly, but if a one returns on the right moment, the enemy will probably have something to think about.

Snowdog · 06-17-2004, 11:11 AM

One must consider the history, especially of Gondor. The two highlights of concern are the Kin-strife, and the attempt by Arvedui to claim the throne of Gondor when the line of Kings came to an end with the death of Ondoher and his sons. It was a touchy issue, and Aragorn had to move carefully before proclaiming his Kingship in Gondor. The death of Denethor really helped this along.

Selmo · 06-18-2004, 03:54 AM

Imagine the reaction to a claim by Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom to be the legitimate ruler of the USA. She is a direct descendant of George III, the last King to have sovereignty over America.

Before the War of The Ring, the reaction of the Gondorians to a claim to the crown by a Cheiftain of the Northern Dunedain would have been the same.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 06-18-2004, 06:08 AM

Well, not entirely. Great Britain officially recognised the independence of the United States in 1783, so there'd be no legal precedent for a British monarch to claim any rights of sovereignty there.

A closer parallel would be for a direct descendent of James II to turn up and claim to be the rightful king of England. Although the ancestry would be right, such an action would ignore the events of 1688 that removed the Stuarts from power, and every constitutional change since then.

Aragorn's situation is very similar to that of Arvedui, but his claim is reinforced by his work on Gondor's behalf in the War of the Ring. He is well aware of the constitutional issues of claiming the kingship, which is why he refuses to do so when first he comes to Minas Tirith. He may use the banner of the Kings of Gondor in battle, where it can be a boost to morale, but when he enters the city, he does so as a private individual. In doing this he demonstrates a patience and flair for diplomacy which, combined with his other kingly qualities, would help his case immensely. Also he does everything he can to do due honour to the house of the Stewards, following up his initial tact by confirming Faramir, Denethor's rightful heir, as steward.

Although I agree with Mister Underhill that Aragorn's huge popularity would have played a part, I'm sure that the shadow of the Kin-strife lay heavily on his mind, particularly since he had already met Denethor and knew how he would view any attempt to establish a king in Gondor. Given the precarious position of the country at the time of Aragorn's return, he would probably have waited until after the war had been fought before making a bid for his inheritance, had Denethor lived and remained sane.

It's interesting to note that in deliberately breaking Denethor's mind, Sauron does much to aid the return of the king. Although his intent is to weaken the leadership of Gondor, the net result of his actions is to strengthen it immeasurably. As so often happens in Tolkien's work, "Out of evil cometh good".

tar-ancalime · 06-18-2004, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Ok, what I never understood, was why did Aragorn, and all the Dunadan-leaders before him, not claim the throne?

There have been some compelling arguments made as to why Aragorn waited until after the War to claim the throne, but as I understand it the reason why he could claim it at all was because he was the son of Arathorn AND Gilraen, thus uniting the lines of Isildur and Anarion and making him the heir to the thrones of both Gondor and Arnor. This is why none of the other chiefs of the Dunedain could take the throne in Gondor--they were the heirs to Arnor only. Which brings up the question, why did they not try to reestablish the kingdom of Arnor before? I think that they were waiting all along for Aragorn to reunite the two kingdoms--if Frodo could see a vision of the Dunedain ending with "one with a star on his brow" (at the Barrow-downs), it stands to reason that they themselves could have known what to wait for.

OK, I've said my piece and will now wait patiently to be corrected--I'm sure there are gaping holes in my logic and in my lore.

Snowdog · 06-18-2004, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Aragorn's situation is very similar to that of Arvedui, but his claim is reinforced by his work on Gondor's behalf in the War of the Ring.

Yet Arvedui was married to Firiel, the daughter of Ondoher and the only surviving heir.

Quote:

There have been some compelling arguments made as to why Aragorn waited until after the War to claim the throne, but as I understand it the reason why he could claim it at all was because he was the son of Arathorn AND Gilraen, thus uniting the lines of Isildur and Anarion and making him the heir to the thrones of both Gondor and Arnor.

Then Aranarth could have had the same claim, being the son of Arvedui & Firiel. I'm a bit rusty, but where is it said that Gilraen was in the line of Anarion?

Good insights here!

tar-ancalime · 06-18-2004, 10:19 AM

In The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen it says that Gilraen is descended from Aranarth, who is of course a descendant of Ondoher on his mother's side. But you're right--it seems as though Aranarth himself ought to have had the same claim as Aragorn. Interesting.

05-09-2003, 10:45 AM	#1
Afrodal Fenyar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 94	Hey, think about it: you were beaten by a great king of men over 3000 years ago, you've been fighting a war with his people for generations, and right when you think you're winning, the king's heir returns to claim the throne and really fight a war with you, when you thought there were no king anymore. It sure also had some strategic importance. Gondor didn't need a king very badly, but if a one returns on the right moment, the enemy will probably have something to think about. __________________ "Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing. To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!" ~Eomer

06-17-2004, 11:11 AM	#2
Snowdog Emperor of the South Pole Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The Western Shore of Lake Evendim Posts: 662	Dúnedain, Gondor, and the Kingship One must consider the history, especially of Gondor. The two highlights of concern are the Kin-strife, and the attempt by Arvedui to claim the throne of Gondor when the line of Kings came to an end with the death of Ondoher and his sons. It was a touchy issue, and Aragorn had to move carefully before proclaiming his Kingship in Gondor. The death of Denethor really helped this along.

06-18-2004, 06:08 AM	#4
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Reclaiming the Colonies Well, not entirely. Great Britain officially recognised the independence of the United States in 1783, so there'd be no legal precedent for a British monarch to claim any rights of sovereignty there. A closer parallel would be for a direct descendent of James II to turn up and claim to be the rightful king of England. Although the ancestry would be right, such an action would ignore the events of 1688 that removed the Stuarts from power, and every constitutional change since then. Aragorn's situation is very similar to that of Arvedui, but his claim is reinforced by his work on Gondor's behalf in the War of the Ring. He is well aware of the constitutional issues of claiming the kingship, which is why he refuses to do so when first he comes to Minas Tirith. He may use the banner of the Kings of Gondor in battle, where it can be a boost to morale, but when he enters the city, he does so as a private individual. In doing this he demonstrates a patience and flair for diplomacy which, combined with his other kingly qualities, would help his case immensely. Also he does everything he can to do due honour to the house of the Stewards, following up his initial tact by confirming Faramir, Denethor's rightful heir, as steward. Although I agree with Mister Underhill that Aragorn's huge popularity would have played a part, I'm sure that the shadow of the Kin-strife lay heavily on his mind, particularly since he had already met Denethor and knew how he would view any attempt to establish a king in Gondor. Given the precarious position of the country at the time of Aragorn's return, he would probably have waited until after the war had been fought before making a bid for his inheritance, had Denethor lived and remained sane. It's interesting to note that in deliberately breaking Denethor's mind, Sauron does much to aid the return of the king. Although his intent is to weaken the leadership of Gondor, the net result of his actions is to strengthen it immeasurably. As so often happens in Tolkien's work, "Out of evil cometh good". __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

06-18-2004, 10:19 AM	#7
tar-ancalime Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: abaft the beam Posts: 303	marryin' cousins In The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen it says that Gilraen is descended from Aranarth, who is of course a descendant of Ondoher on his mother's side. But you're right--it seems as though Aranarth himself ought to have had the same claim as Aragorn. Interesting. __________________ Having fun wolfing it to the bitter end, I see, gaur-ancalime (lmp, ww13)

06-18-2004, 03:54 AM	#3
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	Imagine the reaction to a claim by Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom to be the legitimate ruler of the USA. She is a direct descendant of George III, the last King to have sovereignty over America. Before the War of The Ring, the reaction of the Gondorians to a claim to the crown by a Cheiftain of the Northern Dunedain would have been the same.