Do you think Tolkien would be insulted by the LOTR movies? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

11-23-2005, 02:48 PM

Although the evil power & spirit of Sauron & the Nazgul was destroyed when the One Ring was no more, is there anything to suggest that these guys can return in their original form, as in before Sauron turned to evil ways & ensared the nine men doomed to die?

A novel could follow in which Sauron returns as a good guy, but in seceret again plots the mastery of ME for his own, with the nine men, formerly the Nazgul, working as his agents? Sounds like re-telling the LOTR all over again, but not quite.

Beleg · 12-04-2005, 06:32 AM

Though I enjoyed the Return of the King, The Two Tours is for me the worst film in the trilogy.
I agree that PJ could not adapt the whole story. But why did he include scenes that didn't even exist in the book, instead of real events related in it? If he didn't have the possibility to do so because the books were too massive, he shouldn't have added others imaginary scenes (death of Aragorn, Elves in Helm's deep...).

About this last point: for me, the coming of Haldir was a mistake. The end of the 3rd Age shows the end of the Elves. They are all leaving Middle-Earth. And it's something that I really notice each time I read the books: it's the time of Men, with the 4th Age coming.
So, why should the Elves get involved in the war and help the humans in Helm's Deep battle?

Anyway, I enjoyed the two others, with just one great disadvantage: each time I'm reading the books, I have the faces of the actors instead of the ones I've imaginated until now. And for Eowyn, it's very annoying as I find Miranda Otto very far from what I was thinking. Fortunately, I'm quite happy with Boromir and Faramir.

EDIT: I lost the thread of the conversation. I meant by this answer that Tolkien, if he would not be insulted, would be (maybe) irritated by some aspects of PJ's adaptation.

Farael · 12-10-2005, 04:09 AM

Well, to voice what has been said before I guess, I do believe that it is all but impossible to say whether Tolkien would have liked the movies or not, as there are good arguments going both ways.

He was very critical of the other adaptation yet for the sounds of it, it was an outright DISASTER.... while PJ's adaptation had some.... incongruences... I do believe it did catch the essence of the books. The Shire was perfect, Bagg-end looked beautiful, as did Rivendel, Gondor and Rohan. Lorien looked a little different from what I had imagined (in the movie it looked to me like the 'houses' (can't remember their name) were like a massive building set on trees while I imagined them as much smaller yet somehow more closely associated to the trees themselves....)

The characters were mostly well done. I dont think any of the hobbits was badly portrayed (even Frodo and Gollum) Saruman's fireball and falling on a spike were not of my liking (but the way snake kills him at Othranc rather than The Shire was ok if they did not mean to add the scouring of The Shire to the movie) and Argorn not wanting to be the king was sort of a major mess-up yet if it had been stressed just a little less it would have been quite understandable (after all, it's not like being the King of a nation in constant war with a very powerful enemy is an easy choice)

I must say I enjoy the movies a lot, as when I'm watching them I am aware it is a movie and not hte original book. I don't think JRR (or for that matter any) Tolkien would have been able to abstract themselves from the books and enjoy the movies, but should they have been able to, I think they would have been overall pleased. Argorn talking and giving orders in Elvish was brilliant, even if the elves were not supposed to be there in the first place (by the way, are there not elves in the Siege of Gondor?) The love story was quite acceptable, as it was not stressed ad-nauseum and it fit in well with the story. The only part I disagree with is Arwen waking up Argorn pretty much from the dead with her kiss... but the rest worked out for me.

My only problem with the movie is that, while it did help me to imagine the cities and places a whole lot better, it also made it harder for me to "see" the characters as I imagined them before. The Hobbits were not quite the way I had thought of them, Argorn was also very different but the movie character had sort of the same "feeling" to him so it did not bother me as much. Eowyn was actually as I had imagined her (physically) as I thought of her as an amazingly good looking woman who was a little.... crazy is not the word but perhaps too saddened by life.

All in all, I believe that unless Tolkien had been able to abstract himself from his own work and enjoy the movies as they were, he would not have been completely pleased, although it is also possible that we, as lovers of Tolkien's work are far more strict than the writer himself. After all, it is also likely that he would appreciate a (good) effort to transform his books into film and I believed that PJ, for all his flaws did an excelent effort.

(sidenote, I tried to look up if there were elves in the Siege of Minas Tirith yet I could not find it... but it is quite late over here and I might have missed. I'd appreciate it if anyone could check for me)

davem · 12-10-2005, 06:54 AM

Quote:

(sidenote, I tried to look up if there were elves in the Siege of Minas Tirith yet I could not find it... but it is quite late over here and I might have missed. I'd appreciate it if anyone could check for me)

The sons of Elrond were there in the battle (as well as Legolas, of course

)

Farael · 12-10-2005, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

The sons of Elrond were there in the battle (as well as Legolas, of course

)

I guess that could somewhat, somehow, perhaps, maybe, kinda, sort of..... explain the elves in Helms Deep?

davem · 12-10-2005, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farael

I guess that could somewhat, somehow, perhaps, maybe, kinda, sort of..... explain the elves in Helms Deep?

I've read the same point made about Elrond sending his sons to the aid of Aragorn in the book & his sending of Elves to aid the Rohirrim in the movie to show that the Elves haven't entirely given up on Men (& by extension on Middle-earth itself). I think the idea that the Elves are completely detatched & unconcerned with the fate of Middle-earth, & are leaving it to Men to deal with Sauron in practical ways - I've said similar things myself in the past. I think its probably a bit more complicated than that.

The Elves play the part they are capable of playing. I just think they have become so detatched over time (apart from the 'Great' like Galadriel & Elrond) that when push comes to shove they aren't all that capable of doing much beyond 'self-defence' (which is what I think we see behind their defence of Lorien & Galadriel's overthrow of Dol Guldur). Certainly the movie Elves are a more dynamic & active force than the Elves of the book, yet I accept their 'detatchment' & struggle to engage with a world that is changing beyond their capacity to deal with it does come across at Helm's Deep, where, let's face it, they prove almost incompetent. Their arrival may be impressive but once the battle starts they do little other than die tragically.

The more I think about it the more 'successful' I feel Jackson is in communicating the final days of the Elves in Middle-earth through episodes like Helm's Deep. Of course, Legolas' superhero antics overshadow that conception somewhat, but the idea of the Elves as not just tragic figures, but also as a spent force, wanting to recapture old glories but incapable of doing so - in fact capable only of leaving Middle-earth (by dying there or by taking ship into the West) does come across.

(Can somebody help me revive SaucepanMan - I think he's fainted?

)

Lalwendë · 12-10-2005, 03:01 PM

If Jackson was successful in that then it's possibly a kind of 'happy accident'. Why? Because Arwen was originally scheduled to turn up and fight at Helm's Deep, and in fact these scenes were filmed but then edited out (you can see a few glimpses of Liv Tyler in some scenes though you'd possibly have to watch the film frame by frame with a microscope

). The contingent of fighting Elves would have come along with her, and there would be no reason to cut out scenes of audience-friendly Elves.

By the way, I think he was successful in getting this point across anyway...

11-23-2005, 02:48 PM	#1
Mansun Guest Posts: n/a	The return of Sauron and the Nazgul Although the evil power & spirit of Sauron & the Nazgul was destroyed when the One Ring was no more, is there anything to suggest that these guys can return in their original form, as in before Sauron turned to evil ways & ensared the nine men doomed to die? A novel could follow in which Sauron returns as a good guy, but in seceret again plots the mastery of ME for his own, with the nine men, formerly the Nazgul, working as his agents? Sounds like re-telling the LOTR all over again, but not quite.

12-04-2005, 06:32 AM	#2
Beleg Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Between France and Doriath Posts: 42	Though I enjoyed the Return of the King, The Two Tours is for me the worst film in the trilogy. I agree that PJ could not adapt the whole story. But why did he include scenes that didn't even exist in the book, instead of real events related in it? If he didn't have the possibility to do so because the books were too massive, he shouldn't have added others imaginary scenes (death of Aragorn, Elves in Helm's deep...). About this last point: for me, the coming of Haldir was a mistake. The end of the 3rd Age shows the end of the Elves. They are all leaving Middle-Earth. And it's something that I really notice each time I read the books: it's the time of Men, with the 4th Age coming. So, why should the Elves get involved in the war and help the humans in Helm's Deep battle? Anyway, I enjoyed the two others, with just one great disadvantage: each time I'm reading the books, I have the faces of the actors instead of the ones I've imaginated until now. And for Eowyn, it's very annoying as I find Miranda Otto very far from what I was thinking. Fortunately, I'm quite happy with Boromir and Faramir. EDIT: I lost the thread of the conversation. I meant by this answer that Tolkien, if he would not be insulted, would be (maybe) irritated by some aspects of PJ's adaptation. __________________ Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul Last edited by Beleg; 12-04-2005 at 08:25 AM.

12-10-2005, 03:01 PM	#7
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	If Jackson was successful in that then it's possibly a kind of 'happy accident'. Why? Because Arwen was originally scheduled to turn up and fight at Helm's Deep, and in fact these scenes were filmed but then edited out (you can see a few glimpses of Liv Tyler in some scenes though you'd possibly have to watch the film frame by frame with a microscope ). The contingent of fighting Elves would have come along with her, and there would be no reason to cut out scenes of audience-friendly Elves. By the way, I think he was successful in getting this point across anyway... __________________ Gordon's alive!

12-10-2005, 04:09 AM	#3
Farael Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: In hospitals, call rooms and (rarely) my apartment. Posts: 1,538	Well, to voice what has been said before I guess, I do believe that it is all but impossible to say whether Tolkien would have liked the movies or not, as there are good arguments going both ways. He was very critical of the other adaptation yet for the sounds of it, it was an outright DISASTER.... while PJ's adaptation had some.... incongruences... I do believe it did catch the essence of the books. The Shire was perfect, Bagg-end looked beautiful, as did Rivendel, Gondor and Rohan. Lorien looked a little different from what I had imagined (in the movie it looked to me like the 'houses' (can't remember their name) were like a massive building set on trees while I imagined them as much smaller yet somehow more closely associated to the trees themselves....) The characters were mostly well done. I dont think any of the hobbits was badly portrayed (even Frodo and Gollum) Saruman's fireball and falling on a spike were not of my liking (but the way snake kills him at Othranc rather than The Shire was ok if they did not mean to add the scouring of The Shire to the movie) and Argorn not wanting to be the king was sort of a major mess-up yet if it had been stressed just a little less it would have been quite understandable (after all, it's not like being the King of a nation in constant war with a very powerful enemy is an easy choice) I must say I enjoy the movies a lot, as when I'm watching them I am aware it is a movie and not hte original book. I don't think JRR (or for that matter any) Tolkien would have been able to abstract themselves from the books and enjoy the movies, but should they have been able to, I think they would have been overall pleased. Argorn talking and giving orders in Elvish was brilliant, even if the elves were not supposed to be there in the first place (by the way, are there not elves in the Siege of Gondor?) The love story was quite acceptable, as it was not stressed ad-nauseum and it fit in well with the story. The only part I disagree with is Arwen waking up Argorn pretty much from the dead with her kiss... but the rest worked out for me. My only problem with the movie is that, while it did help me to imagine the cities and places a whole lot better, it also made it harder for me to "see" the characters as I imagined them before. The Hobbits were not quite the way I had thought of them, Argorn was also very different but the movie character had sort of the same "feeling" to him so it did not bother me as much. Eowyn was actually as I had imagined her (physically) as I thought of her as an amazingly good looking woman who was a little.... crazy is not the word but perhaps too saddened by life. All in all, I believe that unless Tolkien had been able to abstract himself from his own work and enjoy the movies as they were, he would not have been completely pleased, although it is also possible that we, as lovers of Tolkien's work are far more strict than the writer himself. After all, it is also likely that he would appreciate a (good) effort to transform his books into film and I believed that PJ, for all his flaws did an excelent effort. (sidenote, I tried to look up if there were elves in the Siege of Minas Tirith yet I could not find it... but it is quite late over here and I might have missed. I'd appreciate it if anyone could check for me)