Would he have done it?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Eru ... he was a creation of the "later" Tolkien; in the tale of LotR the best you've got is hope that in the long run evil will be defeated, but that might not be within the time of this world. The threat of Sauron's total victory over Middle-Earth is real, that much is made completely clear by the Wise.

Gobtwiddle, my dear sir. Do mean to imply that the first pages of the published Silmarillion (Valaquenta/Ainulindalë) came after Tolkien completed LotR? Gobtwiddle, I say. Or are you saying all the reader can know because all that other stuff wasn't published yet? Or are you saying in the context of LotR alone? Even then, we're talking about Gandalf in the context of Tolkien's entire cosmic structure. And one more point. Eru is not God, but Eru is the the prime deity of Arda, and there are enough similarities such that it is not mere convenience to "confound" the two. Gauntlet thrown, oh deadcomrade of polls and canonicitiness.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Gobtwiddle, my dear sir. Do mean to imply that the first pages of the published Silmarillion (Valaquenta/Ainulindalë) came after Tolkien completed LotR? Gobtwiddle, I say. Or are you saying all the reader can know because all that other stuff wasn't published yet? Or are you saying in the context of LotR alone? Even then, we're talking about Gandalf in the context of Tolkien's entire cosmic structure. And one more point. Eru is not God, but Eru is the the prime deity of Arda, and there are enough similarities such that it is not mere convenience to "confound" the two. Gauntlet thrown, oh deadcomrade of polls and canonicitiness.

"Gobtwiddle"! "Gobtwiddle"!?!?!? The gauntlet is thrown indeed your metrically-organised smallness!

"Do mean to imply that the first pages of the published Silmarillion (Valaquenta/Ainulindalë) came after Tolkien completed LotR?" -- I thought that I was doing far more than imply this. Tolkien revised and revised the Sil until his dying day, and the final published version is also very much the result of Christopher's editing. Both the older Tolkien and his son were far more interested in bringing the cosmos of M-E into a Catholic shape than the Tolkien who wrote LotR, who was interested only -- or at least primarilly -- in telling a ripping good yarn.

"Or are you saying all the reader can know because all that other stuff wasn't published yet?" -- Also a yes.

"Or are you saying in the context of LotR alone?" -- what other context is relevant here? The question as posed is whether or not Gandalf would have taken the Ring; such a situation exists only in the context of LotR.

But the point here is not to address the Eru/God debate (but perhaps the time has come to do so in another, more effective fashion..hmmm.....) but the question of Gandalf's fate. And I still say that the question as asked was answered in the text. He did not take the Ring when it was offered to him, and he made it perfectly clear that it was madness for anyone to try. Further to that, with his reincarnation as Gandalf the White, we see Gandalf having recieved the highest benediction of those in the West: their especial faith that he would never succumb to the Ring.

(*Fordim waits for someone to catch him out in his complete flip-flop here*)

I quite like Bergil's point that Gandalf had other options -- desperate options indeed, but certainly better than taking the One.

[Formendacil]

Erm.... I don't have a copy of the Letters, and to get one involves going to the library, hoping it's in, and then taking it out... It would be a bit more simpler if the passage and/or the whole letter could be quoted here...

I have a theory here, but I really don't want to air it without reading the passage in case I'm entirely off-base.

[Aiwendil]

Fordim wrote:

Eru doesn't really appear in LotR -- he was a creation of the "later" Tolkien

This simply isn't true. Eru/Iluvatar existed as early as about 1920, when Tolkien wrote the first version of "The Music of the Ainur". It's true that the final version of the Ainulindale was not written until the 1950s, but the story was not much changed in its essentials (certainly far less than many other parts of the Legendarium).

"Or are you saying in the context of LotR alone?" -- what other context is relevant here? The question as posed is whether or not Gandalf would have taken the Ring; such a situation exists only in the context of LotR.

The other context that may be relevant is that of LotR + the rest of the Legendarium.

[Kuruharan]

It would be a bit more simpler if the passage and/or the whole letter could be quoted here

Simpler for you, not us.

What you are supposed to do is proceed out from your place of residence or wage slavery (whichever the case may be at the moment) and go forth to the nearest outlet of some multi-tentacled corporate monstrosity of a book purveyor, or (better and better) a locally owned version of the same, and purchase yourself a copy of said Letters for your enlightened reading pleasure. No Tolkien library can be complete without it.

Such silly purchases as food and drink pale in comparison with the need to own Letters.

(Unless you are like me and blow the vast majority of your lucre on video games...that is perfectly legitimate. )

[davem]

Further to Aiwendil's point re: Eru, in Tolkien & the Great War John Garth sets out the state of the mythology at the time Tolkien went to war (June 1916)

Enu (sic), whom men refer to as Illuvatar, the Heavenly Father, created the world & dwells outside it. But within the world dwell the 'pagan gods' or ainur, who, with their attendants, here are called the Valar or 'happy folk' (in the original sense of 'blessed with good fortune').

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

What you are supposed to do is proceed out from your place of residence or wage slavery (whichever the case may be at the moment) and go forth to the nearest outlet of some multi-tentacled corporate monstrosity of a book purveyor, or (better and better) a locally owned version of the same, and purchase yourself a copy of said Letters for your enlightened reading pleasure. No Tolkien library can be complete without it.

I quite agree, and were I able to do so, I most certainly would. However, Alberta is most definitely a literary wasteland in that I have not once, not ONCE seen the Letters available for sale. Had I done so, I would immediately buy it, having read it (borrowed) enough times to appreciate its value and to thoroughly enjoy myself.

However, I know of nowhere within a reasonable (or even an unreasonable) distance where I can acquire it.

In the meantime, this is not the topic at hand, and there is no point in getting sent to the spice mines of Kessel by the Skwerls.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

And don't say I've never done anything nice for you.

AAAAGG! Skwerls!