LotR1-FotR-Seq03

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Hmm, may be I am missing something, but there appears to be much wailing and gnashing of teeth here over what seem to me to be some fairly trivial issues.

Surely we've not seen real "wailing and gnashing of teeth" yet, as I was withholding the real deal for the other movies in the trilogy, at which point my rabid frothing may require restraint in the form of multiple sedatives and rope.

An example of a trivial issue that may be important later is the 'Gandalf shoulder-grab cheap thrill.' Initially I wasn't sure why this bothered me, and as the movie moves on I hadn't had the time to think about it for long. However, here in the SbS, I was able to figure out why it bothered me, and deduced it to the 'out-of-characterness' of the Gandalf character as created by PJ. Again, admittedly, a few frames in the ocean, but what we see is that PJ is willing to sacrifice character consistency for a not-full-retail-price thrill.

This is what (to me) the SbS is all about: understanding PJ.

Or, in other words, getting inside his head without the messiness of a hatchet .

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Alatar

Surely we've not seen real "wailing and gnashing of teeth" yet, as I was withholding the real deal for the other movies in the trilogy, at which point my rabid frothing may require restraint in the form of multiple sedatives and rope.

--------------------
I quite agree. In my view, FOTR is by far the best of the three movies.
I've watched part or all of it more then once, and saw it many times
in the theater, but I couldn't watch TTT and ROTK in movie theaters more
then once or twice. Although the second and third certainly have their
moments, there are also some marked errors in moviemaking (but that's
a ways off).

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by alatar

Wood elves?!? Are we to assume that Frodo knows the difference between Wood elves and Stone elves (and their assorted cousins) by the sound made by their passing? But we get more information about the elves regardless, and Sam's line is fitting, as the world is a sadder place now that the elves have left. By the way, in these processions/caravans, who decides who gets to ride the horses? Is it always a person of higher station, someone frail, the owner of the horse, what? And what happens to the horses when they reach the Grey Havens? Just something that I've always wondered.

Any other thoughts on the Wood Elves in this sequence? I must admit that I've always been far more a fan of hobbits than of Elves, all remote and world-weary and perfect. They're definitely a challenge to portray, and I have pretty mixed feelings about Jackson's take on them.

The soft-focus glowiness sorta throws me, but I think it's the music that really doesn't work for me in this bit. As a piece of soundtrack, it's very nice, even gives me chills as I watch this scene. But at the same time it seems too stylized. I mean, we're supposed to get that the song we hear on the soundtrack -- with all its perfect studio harmonizations -- is being sung by the Elves as they march to the Havens, right? Technically I don't see any violation of Tolkien here, but I can't say I buy these Elves. Again, it's a very small detail, but I think I would have preferred the Elf-song to sound more like it was being sung by real creatures walking through a forest.

We'll have more, and perhaps better, opportunities to discuss Jackson's take on Elvishness later, but I'm still curious about others' reactions.

It's also interesting to note this scene's dislocation from its function in the book: the approach of the Elves at a fortuitous moment causes the Black Rider to withdraw. Maybe it's better to save more in-depth discussion of the plot effects for the upcoming encounter with the Nazgûl, but I think it's worth observing that Tolkien uses the scene with the Wood Elves to serve an important story function, whereas Jackson's seemingly minor rearrangement of events causes the scene to lose its purpose, resulting in its rightful excision from the theatrical cut.

[alatar]

I liked how the elves were displayed, with the glowiness and all, yet was just puzzled by the inclusion of the word wood. Why was it added? And if I remember correctly, I don't think that any 'type' of elf is noted later.

[Holbytlass]

I'm going to backtrack for a moment. First off, I want everyone to know where I'm coming from in relation when the movies came out. The movies brought me to the books. I read LOTR 4 months before the FOTR came out and had only gotten to read it a few times. So I was in the "early stages" of a great love affair, when things are fresh and new and every discovery is cosmic. All my senses were hypersensitive when I sat down in that theater.

Second backtrack, when Bilbo finally lets go of the ring and it lands hard (on the floor and in my gut), that was my "oh, $%#@&*!!" moment. That's when I realized this was serious.

Interestingly enough, it bounced away from Gollum because it abandoned him but stayed when Bilbo released it. I suppose this would be a "ring POV", it must have known the riders where coming to find itself and wanted to stay with someone not powerful, and/or it didn't want to be "claimed" by Gandalf since he was there. Maybe that's why there was this extra show of power when Gandalf tried to pick it up (BTW, scared the shoes off me).

Originally Posted by Essex

It's Gandalf's thoughts when Frodo says he can't see any markings on the Ring. I put it to you that there is DISSAPOINTMENT on his face (not relief as everyone else seemed to think at the time) - The reason behind this is that it was Gandalf's JOB to find the Ring so he could help the people of Middle-earth defeat Suaron. He thought he'd found it, but for that second, alas no.

This actually makes sense to my question of why would Gandalf say the ring "is quite cool" and dumps it into Frodo's hand before fully knowing it's the one ring. Had it been a regular ring it would've burned.

Originally Posted by Alatar

Somewhere the "Rosie knows an idiot when she sees one" line was touted to be just wonderful, but to me it's a joke that isn't really funny.

I don't find those lines funny, but that part does make Sam endearing to me. He knows he isn't the smartest hobbit around, but he is wise enough to know his limits but never use his limits as an excuse not to do things, or shirk in anyway.


The wood elf scene, I could do without. Later it is explained how and why the elves are leaving Middle-earth. Other than to see two doe-eyed handsome men, it could have been cut.

All in all, loved the landscape, interactions between Gandalf-Frodo-Sam very good. Loved how scary Rider was talking, not real important about the head-chop. Fine with the pace of the movie.

[Kath]

This actually makes sense to my question of why would Gandalf say the ring "is quite cool" and dumps it into Frodo's hand before fully knowing it's the one ring. Had it been a regular ring it would've burned.

But it wouldn't. It had only been in the fire long enough for the paper to burn and gold has an extremely high melting point, so it probably wouldn't have been hot at all. Barely even warm.

On the wood elves front, I think PJ was likely trying to include bits from the books because it was the EE, and maybe to show Sam's fascination with them for a bit of character development. It was a shame that he put them so out of context, because here the general feel of sadness that it generates just doesn't fit. At the moment Frodo and Sam are a little freaked out that's fair enough, but they haven't even met a Black Rider, they have no idea of what awaits them, or that this trip they're making for Gandalf will end in tragedy.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

In my view, FOTR is by far the best of the three movies.
I've watched part or all of it more then once, and saw it many times
in the theater, but I couldn't watch TTT and ROTK in movie theaters more
then once or twice. Although the second and third certainly have their
moments, there are also some marked errors in moviemaking (but that's
a ways off).

Off the top of my head I reckon that most people think FOTR is the 'best' movie of the three, and that it is the most 'faithful' to the books

I put it to you that FOTR is the LEAST faithful to the books inasmuch as it has the most changes to any of the three films. (maybe not the BIGGEST changes, but the MOST changes..)

I suppose this is another thread in itself...............

PS and of course, in my humble opinion, rotk is by far the best film (and book) of the trilogy......

[alatar]

Tuor of Gondolin and Essex,

We probably should start a poll regarding the 'best' movie of the trilogy, if one doesn't exist already, as such global declarations are not really part of the SbS - not that I don't want to add my opinion . We might state our feelings regarding the particular sequence, but as I think that we all realized before the start of the SbS, simply stating how one feels is more interesting when it is accompanied with why.

As an example, I might assume that Essex prefers RotK over FotR and TTT as RotK has less changes or RotK is more faithful to the source - though really I cannot be sure (again that's not the discussion) and don't want to guess. But at least there's an indication of why. Seeing something in one of the sequences that really makes (or breaks) the film for you would also be interesting to read - the more specific the better. I'd wager that some of you know what breaks RotK for me...Hopefully when I've stated my likes and dislikes in the opening post I've also supplied clear reasons why.

If not, be sure to let me know.

Cheer. - alatar

[alatar]

From listening to the audio CDs this morning I learned (relearned) that Gandalf was identified by his familiar knock at the window or door. Contrast this with PJ's 'breaking in and entering' Wizard.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by alatar

From listening to the audio CDs this morning I learned (relearned) that Gandalf was identified by his familiar knock at the window or door. Contrast this with PJ's 'breaking in and entering' Wizard.

I can always count on you to bring up the proper comment.... It was a bit of a bummer when Gandalf knocked just like anyone else and then threatened to blow the door down the hill. I was looking forward to hear a distinct tap-tararap-tap or something. And I really think Gandalf uttering such needless threat is VERY out of character....

I think PJ has this tendency to portray wizzards as strong, all-mighty rather than compassive, thoughtful types.... I guess it sells more, but that's not the "Tolkien" wizzard. We don't see Gandalf using his powers unless it's extremely necessary (in Tolkien's work) yet PJ seems to want to show them as really tough, fire-ball casting wizzards.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Farael

We don't see Gandalf using his powers unless it's extremely necessary (in Tolkien's work) yet PJ seems to want to show them as really tough, fire-ball casting wizzards.

Unless confronted by Ents (Saruman) or the Witch-King (Gandalf), then the wizards turn into over-ripe bananas.