Spiders?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

However, this simply does not fly, because Ungoliant is WEAKER than than the created creatures of Eru. She feared Melkor in his prime. She feared the Valar, and would not venture into Valinor without Melkor's coaxing and aid. She was also driven off by mere Balrogs.

Now, if Ungoliant was Eru's peer- no matter how weaker, she would not be in such fear of His creations, or in such danger from them.

Very good point that she seems weaker because she fears Melkor and in particular, his Balrogs. And yes, she also fears the Valar, or more specifically, she fears to upset them.

But then this could equally point to the possibility that Ungoliant is indeed of a wholly different nature to any other being on Arda. I note that Tolkien makes the point that she was 'corrupted' by Melkor, and yet he still states that it was simply in her nature to weave her webs of Darkness. These webs do not seem to be inherently evil, just something which Ungoliant creates, and Melkor exploits.

She seems in some ways to be equated with Death. So just as Eru is Light and Life, Ungoliant could be his equal in Death and Darkness.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

She seems in some ways to be equated with Death. So just as Eru is Light and Life, Ungoliant could be his equal in Death and Darkness.

I thought of that too.

Ungoliant seem like this void of moral ruin! She is the incarnation of the sins of death! She is not only darkness, but she is infact unlight!

The thing is you cannot have good, with out evil. There for Ungoliant has to appear, so when Eru creates all she is automatical createt too.

A theory I have read about is that Ungoliant is a manifistation of the evil in Morgoth's soul, a evil that grew independent of him. Because she is only the evil in him, she is darker than darkness.

Last comment: The whole thing of beeing darker than darkness seems to bee the most important thing about Ungoliant and I think that it holds the answer to her origin.

[Thinlómien]

Last comment: The whole thing of beeing darker than darkness seems to bee the most important thing about Ungoliant and I think that it holds the answer to her origin.

It may be so, but I don't that it will be left there... You know; the answer is not complete, so the discussion can continue...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

However, this simply does not fly, because Ungoliant is WEAKER than than the created creatures of Eru. She feared Melkor in his prime. She feared the Valar, and would not venture into Valinor without Melkor's coaxing and aid. She was also driven off by mere Balrogs.

Now, if Ungoliant was Eru's peer- no matter how weaker, she would not be in such fear of His creations, or in such danger from them.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Very good point that she seems weaker because she fears Melkor and in particular, his Balrogs. And yes, she also fears the Valar, or more specifically, she fears to upset them.

But then this could equally point to the possibility that Ungoliant is indeed of a wholly different nature to any other being on Arda.I note that Tolkien makes the point that she was 'corrupted' by Melkor, and yet he still states that it was simply in her nature to weave her webs of Darkness. These webs do not seem to be inherently evil, just something which Ungoliant creates, and Melkor exploits.

She seems in some ways to be equated with Death. So just as Eru is Light and Life, Ungoliant could be his equal in Death and Darkness.

I'm with Lalwendë] on this one, so I have bolded the part of her position which I think is the most significant, although my argument is slightly different.

Formendacil's point is predicated upon the belief or demand that that there is one consistent manner of behaving and a hierarchy of authority where only those on top are the most powerful. (That of course almost reflects the kind of hegemony implied in the unitary vision of divinity.) Yet Ungoliant's being is not unlike the tumultuous foment of Chaos, which waxes and wanes through a variety of forms and stages. This is in fact her strength, I suppose it can be said, that she is multiplicitous rather than uniform.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I'm with Lalwendë] on this one, so I have bolded the part of her position which I think is the most significant, although my argument is slightly different.

Formendacil's point is predicated upon the belief or demand that that there is one consistent manner of behaving and a hierarchy of authority where only those on top are the most powerful. (That of course almost reflects the kind of hegemony implied in the unitary vision of divinity.) Yet Ungoliant's being is not unlike the tumultuous foment of Chaos, which waxes and wanes through a variety of forms and stages. This is in fact her strength, I suppose it can be said, that she is multiplicitous rather than uniform.

Well, you don't have to agree with me, of course. I acknowledge that Ungoliant is a rather mysterious being whose origins are shrouded in mystery. As such, short of any great proclamation by the very dead Professor Tolkien, you're welcome to believe what you will as far as I am concerned.

However, to suggest that Ungoliant's purpose is the opposite of Eru's seems to avoid what I brought up- that she is weaker than and fears Eru's creatures. Furthermore, she must be related in some way to those creatures, if she is able to mate with and produce offspring (with the giant spiders).

In my personal opinion, if one looks at Ungoliant as an Ainu in origin (not saying that she is), it is easy to explain her as someone who was enamoured of Melkor's rebellion, and likewise did not sing the chords of Iluvatar- but she struck out on her own, and did not follow the singing of Melkor. A second, more minor, discord than that of Melkor.

Unlike the Ainur who became Balrogs and Sauron, Ungoliant is never a clear follower of Melkor. She is an enemy of Manwe and the other servants of Eru, and her workings are an absence of Light (and an absence, therefore, of good), and is thus a thing of terror to the Children of Eru- but not, it would seem, inherently evil, or opposed to Eru, save insofar as it is not FOR Eru.

I'm kind of just rambling at this point, spewing out not-fully-fleshed ideas and thoughts. Make of them what you will...