LotR -- Book 6 - Chapter 2 - The Land of Shadow

[davem]

Certainly the Ring's actions can be taken to imply it has a conscious will, but I'm not sure there is one action it performs that can be said to prove that. What exactly was its 'program'? Changing its size doesn't prove it was conscious in any way, only that it could change size. Of course, 'absence of evidence isn't evidence of abscence' & the fact that one cannot find unequivical proof of its consciousness doesn't actually prove it isn't conscious. On the other hand there's Occam's Razor: there's no necessity for the Ring to be conscious - ie we don't require that hypothesis.

Were the Silent Watchers conscious - & if so, how, to what extent & in what way? Was Turin's sword (or the Troll's purse if you want to include the Hobbit)? If any or all of them were conscious it would require an explanation of how a living mind could be bound into a 'dead' object & I think we're venturing into zombie territory there.

Of course, it could be that such a form of 'life' did exist in Middle earth...

[Kuruharan]

there's no necessity for the Ring to be conscious - ie we don't require that hypothesis.

But then we have some rather awkward passages in the text that seem to shift Occam's Razor in the other direction.

[drigel]

#@*$!!! This critter Bilbo apparently has more going on in his head than one might initially think. I guess the Ring is along for a ride for a little bit.

However, from the Ring’s perspective, progress had been made.

um,mm having too much fun w/Bilbo to drop off and find a bearer who really knows the meaning of Power? see - thats whats bugging me

OK, the sentience and will of the ring is there....to what end? survival? Is the ring's pupose is to return to it's master, or just have a bearer? Seems to me if you take this route, then the ring's desire is to simply be wielded, by whom it doesnt matter, apparantly. The ring is itself. Sounds like Sauron didnt make a ring, he had a baby... OK seriously - Too many open questions for me.

All we have to go on are the lives of the bearers post Sauron. From that, I dont see any of the ring's will, I see the effects of bearing the ring. If anything, the ring effects pathological possesiveness and corruption, but by it's design, and the bearer's souls becoming corrupted by it is an affect of that power. Its an elegant design, sophisticated, technologically superior, imbibed with the power of a Maia, but it's just a power tool IMHO.

Kuruharan, I appreciate your views, and how you explain them! I see where you are coming from, but I just aint getting that from my read.

ugh - file this one under "balrogs wings" I mumble, as I retreat back under my rock and read the next chapter

[Kuruharan]

um,mm having too much fun w/Bilbo to drop off and find a bearer who really knows the meaning of Power? see - thats whats bugging me

Ultimately, it wanted to return to its master, not just any crumb bum. You could hardly expect it to start announcing itself to Gandalf. That wouldn't have done at all.

OK, the sentience and will of the ring is there....to what end? survival? Is the ring's pupose is to return to it's master, or just have a bearer?

Well, obviously, as is stated a number of times, the Ring wants to get back to Sauron. It is an old part of Sauron that wants to be with the rest of him again.

All we have to go on are the lives of the bearers post Sauron. From that, I dont see any of the ring's will, I see the effects of bearing the ring.

In what way? Isildur chopped the Ring. The Ring got Isildur killed (note especially how in the Gladden Fields section of the UT the Ring "was still laden with Sauron's evil will and called to all his servants for their aid."). Unfortunately, since the Ring was just a ring, it did not have a whole lot of control over where the body hit the deck (or in this case the drink). It takes awhile for something to happen. Unfortunately, when it does, it is rescued by a hobbitish creature who (while certainly an unpleasant person) is in some ways resistant to the pull of the Ring. It may also have taken the Ring a long time to decide that Gollum would ultimately be of no use to it. When it abandons Gollum it is picked up by...another hobbit! (Imagine the Ring's frustration...) This other hobbit travels in the company of this dangerous and unpleasant wizard and the hobbit won't wear the Ring that much. Then when the wizard leaves they are tromping through this forest on an elf (shudder) path, and the hobbit is not giving the Ring a chance to pop off. When Bilbo does put the Ring on he is in danger of being eaten by spiders and probably has his fingers curled around Sting so the Ring can't work its way off. Then the next time Bilbo wears the Ring for a long period of time they are in an elf (shudder) kingdom. That would be the last place the Ring would want to abandon Bilbo. By the time Bilbo gets out of the Woodland Realm, Sauron is hightailing it eastwards and the Ring probably figures "why bother, better to just lay low for a bit."

Many years pass.

Sauron has returned to Mordor and Bilbo is about to go off into the Wild. This is perfect!

Oh crrrap! That silly wizard intervened and now I'm still stuck here and this new hobbit won't use me at all.

And so on and so on...

I imagine there is a lot of fodder for a “Very Secret Diary of the Ring” here if one wanted to press matters.

Kuruharan, I appreciate your views, and how you explain them! I see where you are coming from, but I just aint getting that from my read.

I see no reason to think that the Ring was not sentient and, in fact, have a body of textual references to back my point. And so we are now back at the bottom of post 48.

[lathspell]

What exactly was its 'program'?

I centainly don't know. I believe the Ring to be sentient, so why should the Ring be programmed?

Were the Silent Watchers conscious - & if so, how, to what extent & in what way? Was Turin's sword (or the Troll's purse if you want to include the Hobbit)? If any or all of them were conscious it would require an explanation of how a living mind could be bound into a 'dead' object & I think we're venturing into zombie territory there.

Interesting, but I don't believe they were sentient. I believe these things to be programmed. Neither the Silent Watchers, nor the Troll's Purse had an ability like the Ring do something when it decided to do it. The Silent Watchers stood there at the gate and when someone tried to enter they held him back. There no more to it.
The Troll's purse had an antitheft device... when someone tried to grip it which wasn't the owner (or how do we know: not Troll?) it alarmed the owner.

Okay, this is completely humourous in intent, but the thought came to me: what if the part of himself that Sauron put into the Ring was his Feminine Side?

Ah, perhaps your right. I wondered wether Gollum was gay (calling the Ring 'his precious'), but not I understand he knew the Ring to be female.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

Certainly the Ring's actions can be taken to imply it has a conscious will, but I'm not sure there is one action it performs that can be said to prove that. What exactly was its 'program'? Changing its size doesn't prove it was conscious in any way, only that it could change size. Of course, 'absence of evidence isn't evidence of abscence' & the fact that one cannot find unequivical proof of its consciousness doesn't actually prove it isn't conscious. On the other hand there's Occam's Razor: there's no necessity for the Ring to be conscious - ie we don't require that hypothesis

The Ring is conscious, the Ring isn't conscious. It's both, and neither. That's in terms of finding concrete evidence in the text in any case. Characters seem to speak of the Ring having a 'will' or a 'mind' but events don't necessarily bear this out.

What I think is happening is that Tolkien chose to build in to the text an object which would appear all the more powerful for being enigmatic. That some characters believe the Ring has a 'will' suggests this is the general accepted view in Middle-earth that it has a 'will'; the Ring has an evil reputation. But just how far, if at all, does it have 'will'? Is this simply the fear of the characters? Is it them attempting to express the ineffable? The latter could be true - Gandalf seems to fail to find words to adequately convey to Frodo what the exact peril is, so has to express this in terms of anthropomorphising the Ring. As an approach, its not wrong; people are terrified of this thing.

I actually don't want to know whether the Ring is one or the other, as it's far more fascinating it being this engima, and besides, it's fun to argue the possibilities.

[drigel]

It is fun. My problem apparantly is that I just need to know when to stop debating (sorry).

Sentient or not, I find the idea of evil being trapped or manifested in an object much more interesting to ponder.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by drigel

Sentient or not, I find the idea of evil being trapped or manifested in an object much more interesting to ponder.

What about the possibility of Good being trapped inside an evil object or inside an object made to serve evil? That's one possibility that's entered my active imagination, especially in terms of the Watchers at Cirith Ungol...