concerning men - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

JenFramp · 02-10-2003, 12:48 PM

I have mastered the history of the elves...however I am unclear a tad bit on men..so..when the awakening of men happened..how many were there? Not all men are descendent from the Edain right? What about the Wose?

Inderjit Sanghera · 02-10-2003, 01:39 PM

The woses or Druedain, were counted in the Edain. We don't actually know how many men awoke, but they awoke in Hildorien, in the east of M-E. As for when they awoke, originally, Tolkien said that they awoke when the Sun first rose, but later he began to veer away from that theory and put the awakening of men further back, to the march of the Eldar perhaps. The Edain can be classified as only those who hlepd the Elves, so the Beorians, Hadorians and the Halethians and I think the Druedain.

[ February 10, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

burrahobbit · 02-10-2003, 03:41 PM

The Rohirrim aren't descended for the Edain. Neither are any of the men in The Hobbit (which the Rohirrim are descended from). The men of Harad etc. also aren't descended from the Edain.

In LotR pretty much everyone that isn't Aragorn of from Gondor (except the Woses) isn't part of the Edain. But the Woses in LotR aren't part of the group that went to Beleriand (and thence Numenor), so maybe that aren't part of the Edain.

[ February 10, 2003: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

InklingElf · 02-10-2003, 06:30 PM

You are correct JenFramp: not every man was descended from the Edain, and there are many divisions:

Drúedain
Drughu
Dúnedain
Easterlings
Kings of Men
Men of Darkness
Men of Middle-earth
Men of Númenor
Men of Old
Men of the West
Men of Westernesse
Mighty of the West
Northmen
Númenóreans
Oghor-hai
Púkel-men
Wild Men
Wild Men of the Woods
Woses

As for Woses:It is a Mannish name for the Drúedain. A name among the Rohirrim for the shy, secretive people known in Elvish as the Drúedain. Though never populous, the end of the Third Age saw these people reduced to a few populations in the southern parts of Middle-earth, especially in the Drúwaith Iaur and Drúadan Forest of Rohan, where the Rohirrim came into contact with them.

Source:Encyclopedia of Arda

[ February 12, 2003: Message edited by: InklingElf ]

Ultimatejoe · 02-10-2003, 10:50 PM

Dude, you just copied that out of the Encyclopedia of Arda... that's lame. If you're going to quote directly from a source use a citation.

JenFramp · 02-11-2003, 10:37 AM

hey that's not nice! at least his information is correct and he doesn't make some stupid assumption

Legolas · 02-11-2003, 11:04 AM

But it was obvious he didn't know what he was talking about, as his list was very repitious.

Drughu = Woses = Drúedain = Oghor-hai = Wild Men of the Woods (in Rohan)

Dúnedain = Men of Westernesse = Men of the West = Kings of Men = Men of Númenor = Mighty of the West

Men of Darkness = Wild Men were the ancestors of the Easterlings and Southrons

Men of Old were just Númenoreans, exiled.

Púkel-men were just carvings, not living men.

[ February 11, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

JenFramp · 02-11-2003, 12:14 PM

...yea..true...

Tar-Palantir · 02-11-2003, 01:16 PM

If you do go to UltimateJoe's link you will find much more than just a list , you find more detail of each and how they are all related (like Legolas demonstrated).

Ultimatejoe · 02-11-2003, 01:46 PM

Quote:

hey that's not nice! at least his information is correct and he doesn't make some stupid assumption

A) It's not correct.
B) It's plagiarism.
C) It's lame.
D) He did make an assumption: The list he included is NOT a list of the races of men; it is a list of the various names for the sub-groups of men.

That's the danger of using secondary sources, and serves of a STARK warning why citation is important. If there weren't more educated people here then someone would've accepted that list as fact, and bad info. would have been further disseminated. With a citation investigation is possible.

Of course that does little to speak of how incredibly lame it is to plagiarize. He is trying to sound like he knows what he talks about; essentially BSing us. If he had sourced his material all the problems with it could have simply been attributed to inexperience.

Where is Inkling Elf?

JenFramp · 02-11-2003, 03:33 PM

ok ok ok...i said true..he copied it

the witch king · 02-11-2003, 04:19 PM

Dont be so harsh man, so what he got a list from some other site at least he's giveing feed back(all be it, not to great feed back)

Ultimatejoe · 02-11-2003, 09:22 PM

I just really HATE plagiarism. I think I provided my reasons already.

JenFramp · 02-12-2003, 03:33 AM

Right..plagarism isn't a good thing. But this topic wasn't for plagarism..it was for information on the drunedain

[ February 12, 2003: Message edited by: JenFramp ]

Ultimatejoe · 02-12-2003, 07:08 AM

Let it go...

InklingElf · 02-12-2003, 05:17 PM

It's alright, I should've added a citation anyway. But, please know that I didn't mean to copy and take for my own. (I guess you know that already)

But thankyou to JenFramp and the witch king [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] (BTW: I'm a "she" not a "he", but I'm sure you didn't do that deliberately)

UltimateJoe told me he didn't mean to be so harsh on another thread.

I'm cool [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[ February 12, 2003: Message edited by: InklingElf ]

hobbit punk · 02-12-2003, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Dude, you just copied that out of the Encyclopedia of Arda... that's lame. If you're going to quote directly from a source use a citation.

Umm if you look at the bottom of his post you will see something that reads: Source: Encyclopedia of Arda [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Ultimatejoe · 02-12-2003, 11:00 PM

That was added after the fact. PLEASE EVERYONE LET IT GO. I made my point, Inkling Elf AGREED WITH ME, and the changes were made. That is all.

(Sorry about the gender confusion)

JenFramp · 02-12-2003, 11:18 PM

so if you guys would be so kind as to continue the discussion..are the men of Rohan descended from Edain?

Ultimatejoe · 02-12-2003, 11:29 PM

They're descended from the men that moved west after the first fall of men in Hildorien.

The term "Edain" is usually reserved for the three houses of men who fought with the Valar in the War of Wrath. (Plus the druedain I guess.)

[ February 13, 2003: Message edited by: Ultimatejoe ]

JenFramp · 02-12-2003, 11:31 PM

so who exactly are the men of hildorian?

Ultimatejoe · 02-12-2003, 11:40 PM

That is where the first men awoke, in the central regions of Arda east of middle earth.

Inderjit Sanghera · 02-13-2003, 08:52 AM

The men of Rohan are descendants of Marachian tribes who never went to Beleriand. (Marachian tribes are pre-Hadorians)

02-10-2003, 12:48 PM	#1
JenFramp Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Zionsville Posts: 90	concerning men I have mastered the history of the elves...however I am unclear a tad bit on men..so..when the awakening of men happened..how many were there? Not all men are descendent from the Edain right? What about the Wose? __________________ And seeing a picture of Jesus he cried out,"Momma, he's got some scars just like me." And he knew it was love, It was one he could understand He was showing his love, And that's how he hurt his hands.

02-10-2003, 01:39 PM	#2
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	The woses or Druedain, were counted in the Edain. We don't actually know how many men awoke, but they awoke in Hildorien, in the east of M-E. As for when they awoke, originally, Tolkien said that they awoke when the Sun first rose, but later he began to veer away from that theory and put the awakening of men further back, to the march of the Eldar perhaps. The Edain can be classified as only those who hlepd the Elves, so the Beorians, Hadorians and the Halethians and I think the Druedain. [ February 10, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ] __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

02-10-2003, 03:41 PM	#3
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	The Rohirrim aren't descended for the Edain. Neither are any of the men in The Hobbit (which the Rohirrim are descended from). The men of Harad etc. also aren't descended from the Edain. In LotR pretty much everyone that isn't Aragorn of from Gondor (except the Woses) isn't part of the Edain. But the Woses in LotR aren't part of the group that went to Beleriand (and thence Numenor), so maybe that aren't part of the Edain. [ February 10, 2003: Message edited by: burrahobbit ] __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

02-10-2003, 10:50 PM	#5
Ultimatejoe Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Trent University, Peterborough, Ontario Posts: 125	Dude, you just copied that out of the Encyclopedia of Arda... that's lame. If you're going to quote directly from a source use a citation. __________________ Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory. -Leonardo Da Vinci

02-11-2003, 10:37 AM	#6
JenFramp Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Zionsville Posts: 90	hey that's not nice! at least his information is correct and he doesn't make some stupid assumption __________________ And seeing a picture of Jesus he cried out,"Momma, he's got some scars just like me." And he knew it was love, It was one he could understand He was showing his love, And that's how he hurt his hands.

02-10-2003, 06:30 PM	#4
InklingElf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 402	You are correct JenFramp: not every man was descended from the Edain, and there are many divisions: Drúedain Drughu Dúnedain Easterlings Kings of Men Men of Darkness Men of Middle-earth Men of Númenor Men of Old Men of the West Men of Westernesse Mighty of the West Northmen Númenóreans Oghor-hai Púkel-men Wild Men Wild Men of the Woods Woses As for Woses:It is a Mannish name for the Drúedain. A name among the Rohirrim for the shy, secretive people known in Elvish as the Drúedain. Though never populous, the end of the Third Age saw these people reduced to a few populations in the southern parts of Middle-earth, especially in the Drúwaith Iaur and Drúadan Forest of Rohan, where the Rohirrim came into contact with them. Source:Encyclopedia of Arda [ February 12, 2003: Message edited by: InklingElf ]

02-11-2003, 11:04 AM	#7
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	But it was obvious he didn't know what he was talking about, as his list was very repitious. Drughu = Woses = Drúedain = Oghor-hai = Wild Men of the Woods (in Rohan) Dúnedain = Men of Westernesse = Men of the West = Kings of Men = Men of Númenor = Mighty of the West Men of Darkness = Wild Men were the ancestors of the Easterlings and Southrons Men of Old were just Númenoreans, exiled. Púkel-men were just carvings, not living men. [ February 11, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

02-11-2003, 12:14 PM	#8
JenFramp Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Zionsville Posts: 90	...yea..true... __________________ And seeing a picture of Jesus he cried out,"Momma, he's got some scars just like me." And he knew it was love, It was one he could understand He was showing his love, And that's how he hurt his hands.

02-11-2003, 01:16 PM	#9
Tar-Palantir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: napa valley, ca Posts: 496	If you do go to UltimateJoe's link you will find much more than just a list , you find more detail of each and how they are all related (like Legolas demonstrated). __________________ History shows again and again How nature points up the folly of men Go, go, Godzilla!

02-11-2003, 03:33 PM	#11
JenFramp Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Zionsville Posts: 90	ok ok ok...i said true..he copied it __________________ And seeing a picture of Jesus he cried out,"Momma, he's got some scars just like me." And he knew it was love, It was one he could understand He was showing his love, And that's how he hurt his hands.

02-11-2003, 04:19 PM	#12
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	Dont be so harsh man, so what he got a list from some other site at least he's giveing feed back(all be it, not to great feed back) __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

02-11-2003, 09:22 PM	#13
Ultimatejoe Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Trent University, Peterborough, Ontario Posts: 125	I just really HATE plagiarism. I think I provided my reasons already. __________________ Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory. -Leonardo Da Vinci

02-12-2003, 03:33 AM	#14
JenFramp Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Zionsville Posts: 90	Right..plagarism isn't a good thing. But this topic wasn't for plagarism..it was for information on the drunedain [ February 12, 2003: Message edited by: JenFramp ] __________________ And seeing a picture of Jesus he cried out,"Momma, he's got some scars just like me." And he knew it was love, It was one he could understand He was showing his love, And that's how he hurt his hands.

02-12-2003, 07:08 AM	#15
Ultimatejoe Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Trent University, Peterborough, Ontario Posts: 125	Let it go... __________________ Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory. -Leonardo Da Vinci

02-12-2003, 05:17 PM	#16
InklingElf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 402	It's alright, I should've added a citation anyway. But, please know that I didn't mean to copy and take for my own. (I guess you know that already) But thankyou to JenFramp and the witch king [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] (BTW: I'm a "she" not a "he", but I'm sure you didn't do that deliberately) UltimateJoe told me he didn't mean to be so harsh on another thread. I'm cool [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] [ February 12, 2003: Message edited by: InklingElf ]

02-12-2003, 11:00 PM	#18
Ultimatejoe Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Trent University, Peterborough, Ontario Posts: 125	That was added after the fact. PLEASE EVERYONE LET IT GO. I made my point, Inkling Elf AGREED WITH ME, and the changes were made. That is all. (Sorry about the gender confusion) __________________ Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory. -Leonardo Da Vinci

02-12-2003, 11:18 PM	#19
JenFramp Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Zionsville Posts: 90	so if you guys would be so kind as to continue the discussion..are the men of Rohan descended from Edain? __________________ And seeing a picture of Jesus he cried out,"Momma, he's got some scars just like me." And he knew it was love, It was one he could understand He was showing his love, And that's how he hurt his hands.

02-12-2003, 11:29 PM	#20
Ultimatejoe Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Trent University, Peterborough, Ontario Posts: 125	They're descended from the men that moved west after the first fall of men in Hildorien. The term "Edain" is usually reserved for the three houses of men who fought with the Valar in the War of Wrath. (Plus the druedain I guess.) [ February 13, 2003: Message edited by: Ultimatejoe ] __________________ Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory. -Leonardo Da Vinci

02-12-2003, 11:31 PM	#21
JenFramp Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Zionsville Posts: 90	so who exactly are the men of hildorian? __________________ And seeing a picture of Jesus he cried out,"Momma, he's got some scars just like me." And he knew it was love, It was one he could understand He was showing his love, And that's how he hurt his hands.

02-12-2003, 11:40 PM	#22
Ultimatejoe Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Trent University, Peterborough, Ontario Posts: 125	That is where the first men awoke, in the central regions of Arda east of middle earth. __________________ Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory. -Leonardo Da Vinci

02-13-2003, 08:52 AM	#23
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	The men of Rohan are descendants of Marachian tribes who never went to Beleriand. (Marachian tribes are pre-Hadorians) __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone