LotR -- Book 6 - Chapter 2 - The Land of Shadow - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

lathspell · 10-08-2005, 08:37 AM

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If the Ring could sense the Nazgul, what possible reason could you propose that it could not sense Gandalf? Gandalf actually touched the Ring you must recall, when he threw it into the fire at Bag End. The Ring had to have known that a being of great power set against its master was there (and doing strange things to it to boot).

I agree that the Ring knew about Gandalf, being there when they set out. And maybe the Ring felt the presence of the Balrog when they were in moria. But the presence of Gandalf fell away long before Frodo and Sam reached Mordor, and if the Ring felt his presence, it must have known this as well. I don't believe any of the others were revealed to the Ring after Gandalf fell, except Sam.
However, this brings another question to my mind. If the Ring felt the presence of Gandalf, than he might have felt te presence of Galadriel. The next question is: what about the phial of Galadriel? Does the Ring sence that her power is still with them? If so, what would that do to the Ring's will?

davem · 10-08-2005, 10:37 AM

Just thinking about Sam's Ring fantasy - if it was his own rather than an idea created by the Ring to tempt him, does this shed a new light on this 'humble servant', the simple gardener? Has Sam this whole other aspect to his character? What does this tell us not only about him, but about Hobbit society generally. Sam, it seems, is not someone who simply accepts his place in society unthinkingly. He has concieved of himself, on some level (whether or not he was fully conscious of it) as a leader, a commander.

In the end he does become a 'leader' - he becomes Mayor of the Shire. But he is elected, given that position by others, rather than taking it for himself. This reminds me of what happens to Gandalf. He rejects the power to be gained by claiming the Ring & as a result he is sent back by Eru after his death in Moria with enhanced power, but this is also power conferred on him, rather than power taken by him. It seems that those who claim power they do not deserve (Saruman, Sauron &, let's face it, Frodo) fall & are broken, left powerless, while those who refuse the temptation to claim power & dominion end up in possession of it.

Bêthberry · 10-08-2005, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

It seems that those who claim power they do not deserve (Saruman, Sauron &, let's face it, Frodo) fall & are broken, left powerless, while those who refuse the temptation to claim power & dominion end up in possession of it.

Yes. This is fantasy, after all.

Lalwendë · 10-08-2005, 11:56 AM

I'm reluctant to think that the Ring has any 'draw' towards Mordor, or even any 'urge' to leave one person and find another Bearer. Why? Because I think that the losing and finding of the Ring is more to do with Fate, and less to do with the Ring itself choosing somebody; surely if the Ring can 'choose' then it might have chosen more suitable bearers for its own purposes? And in addition to this, I think that to give the Ring more sentience might risk demeaning the efforts of those who do bear or reject it.

I think it is simply an incredibly powerful object but without sentience. What I think it does work upon is the boundary between the Fea and the Hroa, as seen in the visions that Frodo has of the Nazgul, Sam's heightened senses on the Pass of Cirith Ungol, Gollum and Bilbo's unnaturally long lives. And it does possess an incredible innate power which Sauron has built in to it during its forging.

One of the ways it works davem has already touched upon, and it is something I have noticed too; there is a possibility that the Ring's 'forces' exert a pull on the person's desires. Galadriel is possibly the best example of this, as she expresses her lust for power and control when offered the Ring. But it is interesting that the Ringbearers do not necessarily express such power hungry desires. Gollum seems to want to use it to sneak around and survive as an outsider, Bilbo uses to avoid neighbours he does not wish to talk to, and Sam uses it to hide from enemies. That Sam's idea of having power is only fleeting is quite telling. It seems that those who do not bear the Ring have more desire for power and control than those who do.

I think that one of the ways the Ring works is nothing to do with the Ring at all, it is simply the reputation of the object. This is shown in the reactions of Boromir and Faramir; the former is absolutely fascinated by it, like someone who stands by a big red button marked 'do not touch', he cannot resist. His brother takes an opposite reaction in that he vehemently states that he'd have nothing to do with it.

To Bilbo, the Ring was almost just a handy gadget, and as far as we can see, he did not become power crazed by possessing it; he did not want to give it up, but he did do so. It clearly had a physiological effect on him by giving him unnatural life, and that I think is where the first real danger of the Ring lies, in that it physically harms people due to the way it works on the body (I wonder how this would work on a non-mortal?). The second danger is that it clearly does possess powers which would be harmful in the hands of anyone who did not truly understand it (and that would include Gandalf and Galadriel who though powerful still would not know everything about how it worked). The third danger is simply that Sauron wants it back and will do anything to get it. Who would want to be in possession of that if the Nazgul were out on the hunt for it?

And going back again for a moment to how the Ring works on desires, it may well have this power, though it is something that those on the side of 'Light' may never fully understand. It has been forged by Sauron who is a rebel and rejects Eru's 'plan'; presumably the 'forces' which he has put into the Ring during its forging are the forces which Sauron alone would understand and appreciate. It is likely that 'desire' would be one of those forces or urges.

I think that the 'draw' of the Nazgul to the Ring is more to do with the Nazgul themselves rather than the Ring; they exist in a shadowy dimension of some description, being bodiless and owners of Rings themselves. Being in that shadowy existence, they may be able to sense something which is akin to those powers.

Frodo's sense of having a burden may be linked to the sheer psychological weight of carrying this object which has such a dark meaning and significance to Middle-earth and its fate. He senses this weight outside Mordor too. Once within the borders of Mordor, and closer to both Sauron and to the place where it was forged, the powers innate in the Ring may very well have become stronger, but I don't think it was sentiently urging the Bearer towards Mount Doom.

It's another way of looking at it, and I admit I'm as in the dark as anyone and these are just ideas, but all the same, this 'urge' we have as readers to explain the Ring seems just as powerful as the forces of the Ring itself.

davem · 10-08-2005, 01:14 PM

I suppose its possible that the Ring, as an object of power is drawn towards power, as a compass needle is drawn to magnetic north, so it may be that it is drawn towards Mount Doom as that is the heart of power in Middle-earth. Of course, other sources of power (I don't think it would distinguish between people & objects) would attract it if they came into its range.

Kuruharan · 10-08-2005, 01:28 PM

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If the Ring felt the presence of Gandalf, than he might have felt te presence of Galadriel.

Bingo!

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what about the phial of Galadriel? Does the Ring sence that her power is still with them? If so, what would that do to the Ring's will?

Hmm...interesting.

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I'm reluctant to think that the Ring has any 'draw' towards Mordor, or even any 'urge' to leave one person and find another Bearer.

Well, you may certainly think this if you like, but you are not in agreement with the text...of which I believe somebody already helpfully provided a relevant passage.

Aiwendil · 10-08-2005, 01:33 PM

Davem wrote:

Quote:

I suppose its possible that the Ring, as an object of power is drawn towards power, as a compass needle is drawn to magnetic north, so it may be that it is drawn towards Mount Doom as that is the heart of power in Middle-earth. Of course, other sources of power (I don't think it would distinguish between people & objects) would attract it if they came into its range.

This is something like what I meant by its "mindless desire". But I don't see it as simply being attracted to power - Mt. Doom is the place where the Ring was forged, so I would imagine it is drawn thither more strongly than it is toward other sources of power.

davem · 10-08-2005, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

This is something like what I meant by its "mindless desire". But I don't see it as simply being attracted to power - Mt. Doom is the place where the Ring was forged, so I would imagine it is drawn thither more strongly than it is toward other sources of power.

What I meant was, just as a compass needle not in the vicinity of a magnetic object would be drawn to magnetic North, so the Ring would be drawn to Mount Doom, but if any other 'magnetic' objeact came into its orbit it would be pulled that way. Once it had 'seduced' that individual into itself the pull to Mount Doom would reassert itself. So, the overall pull would be to the Mountain, but the Ring may get sidetracked . It needs bearers to get it to its destination, but it changes them as soon as it finds a better mode of transport.

Basically this means that no-one could master the Ring - it would always retain the power to leave its 'master' & move on. My own feeling is that it is the Fires at the heart of the earth, rather than Sauron, which draw the Ring. I've speculated before that 'the fires which well up from the heart of the earth' (ie the fires of Orodruin) are the same as the Secret Fire which Eru set to burn at the heart of the earth.

The thing that now occurs is, while the Ring may not have 'desired' its own destruction in the fire, it may have 'desired' to return to, & become one with, its source (which it may not have seen as 'destruction' at all)

Now, all the foregoing may seem to imply a conscious, desiring, will on the Ring's part - which I don't necessarily think is the case. It is, to my mind, perhaps on the level of a moth drawn to a candle flame, which, if it attains its 'desire' will find only its own destruction.

drigel · 10-10-2005, 08:51 AM

Obviously we could move this particular topic to another thread, but, seeing as this is the second to the last chapter where the ring acutally exists, ill throw down here. It's an interesting discussion about the ring. What's more interesting to me is how so many different angles people take on the works. Its why I love this website. So, into the fray....

OK well, I dont ever mind being in the minority on any debate - but - I have to say whooooahhhh folks slow down.

A couple of things first:
In the context of the story, I do agree that many of the players do imply, bestow, and otherwise conclude a will towards the ring. If I were immersed into the drama I would as well, I suppose. Especially if I had no understanding of the craft or technology or history. How would a peasant from the middle age view a computer or an Apache helicoptor, or (and a closer analogy for this age) - the computer at NORAD that controls ICBM nuclear missles (that, oh by the way, has super malevolent evil software programming)?

Since the author chose not to have the reader have any 1st or 2nd person experience of the main protagonist (Sauron), then the ring benefited or inherited the main protagonist role. It's a genious effect, but lets not run away with it.

Quote:

If the Ring could sense the Nazgul, what possible reason could you propose that it could not sense Gandalf?

Well, both the Nazgul and the ring are creations of Sauron, possibly there might be something sensed, but the sensing is from the Nazgul IMO.

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If the Ring felt the presence of Gandalf, than he might have felt te presence of Galadriel.

See? My point here is that look what conjecture does. Why is the ring a "he", and not a "she"? Well, since you have already granted sentience, why not?

The ring to me is both a study of power and of evil. Its in the ring - yes - but the bearers of the ring is where the action is. All the little slips and turns that are being used as examples for sentience to me show only Eru's subtle hand in events as Lalwende's quote is suggesting:

Quote:

Because I think that the losing and finding of the Ring is more to do with Fate, and less to do with the Ring itself choosing somebody; surely if the Ring can 'choose' then it might have chosen more suitable bearers for its own purposes?

The ring slipped off Isildur's finger while he was swimming in a river. Cursed by the evil intentions of the ring, wanting a more evil bearer? Cursed by fate that knew that it should have been destroyed forever on Gorgoroth? Or, did it simply slip off?

At this point, it's sitting in the sand at the bottom of a river. Its a piece of metal. Like my power saw unplugged. All the potential in the world, but nothing really, but some metal. Only until my saw becomes plugged in is when the purpose of the saw begins. Of course I could cut my hand off as well as make a table, or an heirloom cabinet with it, or mabye I just need it to trim a 2X4... Its the same with the bearers to me. All the will and sensing and sentience doesnt come into play until the ring gets it's bearer, and with the bearer comes good and evil and fate and choice...

But back to Lal's quote, which to me is the best argument. After Isildur, its found by Smeagle, then Bilbo and on to Frodo. Curious that the hands of Halflings are the bearers. They apparantly are the only species alive in ME that had the intestinal fortitude of goodness that could actually bear the ring and not claim it. I see Eru's hand in that, not the ring's will.

10-08-2005, 10:37 AM	#2
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Just thinking about Sam's Ring fantasy - if it was his own rather than an idea created by the Ring to tempt him, does this shed a new light on this 'humble servant', the simple gardener? Has Sam this whole other aspect to his character? What does this tell us not only about him, but about Hobbit society generally. Sam, it seems, is not someone who simply accepts his place in society unthinkingly. He has concieved of himself, on some level (whether or not he was fully conscious of it) as a leader, a commander. In the end he does become a 'leader' - he becomes Mayor of the Shire. But he is elected, given that position by others, rather than taking it for himself. This reminds me of what happens to Gandalf. He rejects the power to be gained by claiming the Ring & as a result he is sent back by Eru after his death in Moria with enhanced power, but this is also power conferred on him, rather than power taken by him. It seems that those who claim power they do not deserve (Saruman, Sauron &, let's face it, Frodo) fall & are broken, left powerless, while those who refuse the temptation to claim power & dominion end up in possession of it. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

10-08-2005, 11:56 AM	#4
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	I'm reluctant to think that the Ring has any 'draw' towards Mordor, or even any 'urge' to leave one person and find another Bearer. Why? Because I think that the losing and finding of the Ring is more to do with Fate, and less to do with the Ring itself choosing somebody; surely if the Ring can 'choose' then it might have chosen more suitable bearers for its own purposes? And in addition to this, I think that to give the Ring more sentience might risk demeaning the efforts of those who do bear or reject it. I think it is simply an incredibly powerful object but without sentience. What I think it does work upon is the boundary between the Fea and the Hroa, as seen in the visions that Frodo has of the Nazgul, Sam's heightened senses on the Pass of Cirith Ungol, Gollum and Bilbo's unnaturally long lives. And it does possess an incredible innate power which Sauron has built in to it during its forging. One of the ways it works davem has already touched upon, and it is something I have noticed too; there is a possibility that the Ring's 'forces' exert a pull on the person's desires. Galadriel is possibly the best example of this, as she expresses her lust for power and control when offered the Ring. But it is interesting that the Ringbearers do not necessarily express such power hungry desires. Gollum seems to want to use it to sneak around and survive as an outsider, Bilbo uses to avoid neighbours he does not wish to talk to, and Sam uses it to hide from enemies. That Sam's idea of having power is only fleeting is quite telling. It seems that those who do not bear the Ring have more desire for power and control than those who do. I think that one of the ways the Ring works is nothing to do with the Ring at all, it is simply the reputation of the object. This is shown in the reactions of Boromir and Faramir; the former is absolutely fascinated by it, like someone who stands by a big red button marked 'do not touch', he cannot resist. His brother takes an opposite reaction in that he vehemently states that he'd have nothing to do with it. To Bilbo, the Ring was almost just a handy gadget, and as far as we can see, he did not become power crazed by possessing it; he did not want to give it up, but he did do so. It clearly had a physiological effect on him by giving him unnatural life, and that I think is where the first real danger of the Ring lies, in that it physically harms people due to the way it works on the body (I wonder how this would work on a non-mortal?). The second danger is that it clearly does possess powers which would be harmful in the hands of anyone who did not truly understand it (and that would include Gandalf and Galadriel who though powerful still would not know everything about how it worked). The third danger is simply that Sauron wants it back and will do anything to get it. Who would want to be in possession of that if the Nazgul were out on the hunt for it? And going back again for a moment to how the Ring works on desires, it may well have this power, though it is something that those on the side of 'Light' may never fully understand. It has been forged by Sauron who is a rebel and rejects Eru's 'plan'; presumably the 'forces' which he has put into the Ring during its forging are the forces which Sauron alone would understand and appreciate. It is likely that 'desire' would be one of those forces or urges. I think that the 'draw' of the Nazgul to the Ring is more to do with the Nazgul themselves rather than the Ring; they exist in a shadowy dimension of some description, being bodiless and owners of Rings themselves. Being in that shadowy existence, they may be able to sense something which is akin to those powers. Frodo's sense of having a burden may be linked to the sheer psychological weight of carrying this object which has such a dark meaning and significance to Middle-earth and its fate. He senses this weight outside Mordor too. Once within the borders of Mordor, and closer to both Sauron and to the place where it was forged, the powers innate in the Ring may very well have become stronger, but I don't think it was sentiently urging the Bearer towards Mount Doom. It's another way of looking at it, and I admit I'm as in the dark as anyone and these are just ideas, but all the same, this 'urge' we have as readers to explain the Ring seems just as powerful as the forces of the Ring itself. __________________ Gordon's alive!

10-08-2005, 01:14 PM	#5
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	I suppose its possible that the Ring, as an object of power is drawn towards power, as a compass needle is drawn to magnetic north, so it may be that it is drawn towards Mount Doom as that is the heart of power in Middle-earth. Of course, other sources of power (I don't think it would distinguish between people & objects) would attract it if they came into its range. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."