LotR -- Book 6 - Chapter 2 - The Land of Shadow

[lathspell]

I'm not sure I can explain, but I'm thinking of intuition such as is found in animals. For example, my dog can understand what's going on, but not my exact words. She knows we're going to drive in the car, but though she hears when I mention the goal, she does not know what the words mean. This is not precisely the same thing, but I hope it illustrates the general idea.

Yes, I think I understand what you mean and I agree. The Ring knew they were travelling, ofcourse, but it didn't know where they were going. The Ring doesn't listen, see or smell like Frodo and Sam do, but it does pick up things. I think they may be emotions, because than the Ring would feel mostly hopelessness and determination, and this may explain why the Ring was so content with Frodo. He had no hope, was walking in Mordor, and was only a small hobbit. I think the Ring knew Sam was with him, for Sam had worn it, but it didn't know his emotions.

All this "thinking" comes from the part of Sauron that was placed in the Ring at its beginning.

Yes, indeed, and this also explains why the Ring didn't even think about Frodo and Sam trying to destroy it. Gandalf says in LotR that (I don't have the exact quote) 'Sauron doesn't know, nor guess that they wish to destroy the Ring, because he wouldn't do it himself. He would claim the Ring and be Lord. And therein lies their only hope.'
Because the Ring is 'a part of Sauron' it wouldn't think about being destroyed, if we take Gandalf's words as true. Than, if it isn't going to be destroyed, why does it travel in Mordor? Because it is being returned to it's master, by the little Hobbit without hope, but with this one determination.

[Kuruharan]

Yes, indeed, and this also explains why the Ring didn't even think about Frodo and Sam trying to destroy it. Gandalf says in LotR that (I don't have the exact quote) 'Sauron doesn't know, nor guess that they wish to destroy the Ring, because he wouldn't do it himself. He would claim the Ring and be Lord. And therein lies their only hope.'
Because the Ring is 'a part of Sauron' it wouldn't think about being destroyed, if we take Gandalf's words as true. Than, if it isn't going to be destroyed, why does it travel in Mordor? Because it is being returned to it's master, by the little Hobbit without hope, but with this one determination.

But why in Arda would it think that the original intention was to take it back to Sauron? At a bare minimum the Ring knew that it had been around Sauron’s primary enemies. They had persistently refused to claim it and refused to allow Sauron's servants (the Ring must have known they were there too) to take it. It would be an act of monumental stupidity on the part of the Ring to think they refused to claim it because they were willingly sending it back to Sauron. If that had been the case, the simplest solution would have been to give it to the nearest Nazgul. If the Ring had any capacity for (what we might term) “thought” it had to know that something fishy was going on.

On another slightly related point, Sauron instantly realized what Gandalf was about the minute he knew the Ring was in Mount Doom. How much more so the Ring who knew (at a bare minimum) where it had been and who it had been around. If you concede any ability of thought to the Ring, you have to concede the possibility that it knew an attempt was being made on its life.

[Aiwendil]

Kuruharan wrote:

Now you're going to have to explain how that is possible. Having a will implies direction and a certain level of independence. Having direction implies having some ability to make choices.

I don't know whether it's possible. But this is a fictional world.

But surely we can speak at times of "mindless desires". As I see it, the Ring certainly did have desires - chief of which was probably to return to Sauron. It willed that it return to Sauron. But I don't think this implies a decision to return to Sauron. Rather the Ring willed it, and sought it, simply because that's what the Ring does; that's what's in its nature.

Of course, all this is really tangential to Davem's initial question, which I think is very interesting in its own right: is the determination to reach Mt. Doom Frodo's or the Ring's? I had always thought it Frodo's, but now I'm not sure.

Davem wrote:

This has me wondering about the Ring-inspired fantasies of Gandalf, Galadriel, Boromir & Sam, et al. Where do those fantasies arise? Is the Ring putting those specific fantasies into their heads, or are they creating the whole thing themselves - what I mean is, is it a case of 'If I claim the Ring I can do X', so that the power trips are invented by the individual? Which would mean that Gandalf & the rest on some level had thought about doing some such thing anyway. Sam actually had those power fantasies already on some subconscious level, rather than the Ring constructing that fantasy & putting it into his head.

Another interesting question, and one that again bears upon the nature of the Ring. It's related to the whole internal vs. external issue that Shippey discusses in Author of the Century. And what I'm tempted to say in answer to this is what I'm tempted to say about that issue: that, in a strange way, it's both. The Ring is, in my view, both a source of evil, with a will and power of its own, and a "psychic amplifier", a mirror that reflects one's darker self. So I see both an active temptation on the part of the Ring and a passive amplification of Gandalf's/Galadriel's/Boromir's/Sam's own weaknesses. Now, I don't know whether Sam had literally fantasized about power before the Ring incident; I doubt it. But I do think that the capacity for such fantasy was inherent in Sam, and this is what the Ring drew out.

A stray thought that occurs to me as I'm writing this: of all the characters who hold or use or are offered the Ring, Frodo seems to be the only one who doesn't have some power fantasy about using it. Now, obviously, Frodo is not immune to the effects of the Ring. But all we see in terms of its effect on him is his unwillingness to give it up and the weight and strain that it eventually begins to put on him. Not until Mt. Doom is there any suggestion that Frodo has even considered the possibility of really claiming and using the Ring - which (and sorry I'm jumping ahead here) makes the eventual climactic scene all the more shocking and powerful.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

of all the characters who hold or use or are offered the Ring, Frodo seems to be the only one who doesn't have some power fantasy about using it.

Agreed - generally, though there are odd moments:

You swore a promise by what you call the Precious. Remember that! It will hold you to it; but it will seek a way to twist it to your own undoing. Already you are being twisted. You revealed yourself to me just now, foolishly. Give it back to Smeagol you said. Do not say that again! Do not let that thought grow in you! You will never get it back. But the desire of it may betray you to a bitter end. You will never get it back. In the last need, Smeagol, I should put on the Precious; and the Precious mastered you long ago. If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command. So have a care, Smeagol!"

But hardly a full blown fantasy like Sam's, Galadriel's or Boromir's

[lathspell]

At a bare minimum the Ring knew that it had been around Sauron’s primary enemies. They had persistently refused to claim it and refused to allow Sauron's servants (the Ring must have known they were there too) to take it.

Why would the Ring know this? I don't think so at all. The Ring knew that he was born by Frodo, and that there were Nazgûl at hand. I don't believe that the Ring knew more than this, until Sam took it from Frodo at Cirith Ungol. At that point it knew Sam was there as well.

Frodo seems to be the only one who doesn't have some power fantasy about using it.

Don't forget Bilbo, he didn't envisage himself as a great lord. He just thought the Ring was a beautiful and very useful thing. I think that only the ones who are in the presence of the Ring, able to get it, see themselves great and terrible. Once you have obtained the Ring, it is clear that it doesn't make you Samwise the Strong or Lord Smeagol. Although I think that Gandalf and Galadriel and such poweful people would know what the Ring would do to them.
Once you've got the Ring, you'll feel it only as a burden, though you would not get rid of it. And if you didn't know what the Ring was exactly, like Bilbo, you wouldn't even blame the Ring.
Now, the only who doesn't seem to have visions of power when in presence of the Ring is Tom Bombadil. But he is such a mysterious man, and there are already too many discussions about him, that I'm not going to start one about him here.

This has me wondering about the Ring-inspired fantasies of Gandalf, Galadriel, Boromir & Sam, et al. Where do those fantasies arise? Is the Ring putting those specific fantasies into their heads, or are they creating the whole thing themselves - what I mean is, is it a case of 'If I claim the Ring I can do X', so that the power trips are invented by the individual? Which would mean that Gandalf & the rest on some level had thought about doing some such thing anyway. Sam actually had those power fantasies already on some subconscious level, rather than the Ring constructing that fantasy & putting it into his head.

The Ring doesn't plant the fantasies in your head. It seems that, once you know what the Ring is and how powerful and object, you are always tempted by it. If you don't know what it is, you're not tempted. Frodo knew Bilbo had the Ring, but he didn't know what the Ring was, therefore he'd never seen himself as 'Fantastic Frodo'. Once he was told the power of the Ring, he owned it already, and knew that it didn't make him 'Fantastic Frodo'.
You don't ever have to have visions of yourself being lord and master. If the Ring crosses your path and you know what it is, than you'll start wondering: what couldn't I do with this thing? I think that is the power of the Ring, to make you start wondering and in this way creating envy and longing. What you think, whether you're thinking you'll be Samwise the Strong or Gollum the Great, it doesn't know and it doesn't care. You will be tempted!