The Narn i Chîn Húrin: Beleg & Falivirn

[Aiwendil]

Comments up to NA-RG-18

NA-RG-01:

he knew not the NA-RG-01{Gnomes}[Noldor] of need delving

Way back in the original FoG thread, jallanite wrote:

Gnome/Gnomes to Elf/Elves or Noldo/Noldor. "Gnomes"; was dropped by Tolkien in LR and later writings, often replaced by Noldor. It would be better artistically to retain the original variation Gnome/Gnomes and Noldo/Noldoli which can be best done by replacing Gnome/Gnomes by Elf/Elves except where a general reference to Elves would not fit, as in "the Gnomes were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not." Then use Noldor.

This was our policy throughout FoG, and I think it was a good one. So I would replace "Gnomes" with "Elves" save where "Elves" would not fit or where "Gnomes" is needed for alliterative reasons (in which case, of course, "Noldor" will suffice).

But the present example is borderline on both counts. It is, of course, specifically the Noldor who are delving for Morgoth, not the Elves in general. But as the Noldor are Elves, the sentence remains correct (at least technically) with "Elves". And while "Gnomes" does alliterate here, it is the second stress in a "full" alliterative line; changing it to "Elves" would still leave a "simple" line, with "knew" alliterating with "need".

I guess that, considering the combined doubt of the two points, we had probably best use "Noldor" for this particular instance.

NA-RG-02:

who jewels and gems that rejoiced the NA-RG-02{Gods}[Great]

Do we have a precedent for the use of "Great" as a generic reference to the Valar (as opposed to its use as a reference to the Aratar)? If not, I'd rather simply use "Valar" here.

NA-RG-02.5:

'Twas NA-RG-02.5{a Gnome}[a Noldo] he beheld on the heaped needles

Here, however, we ought to use "Elf".

NA-RG-03:

NA-RG-03{Flinding}[Gwindor] go-{Fuilin}[Guilin] fleeing in anguish

Unless I'm quite mistaken, "go-" disappeared entirely as a patronymic prefix, though YO, YON- = "son" (its origin) does appear in the Etymologies. But Etymologies makes no reference to a patronymic prefix in this entry, as it surely would have had the prefix been retained.

We could of course use:

NA-RG-03{Flinding}[Gwindor] {go-} [son of] {Fuilin}[Guilin] fleeing in anguish

The other option would be to institute a general practice of replacing patronymic prefixes with the suffix -ion, which (I think) is valid in both Sindarin and Quenya.

But the bigger problem is that the name change robs the line of alliteration. We must either find a replacement for "fleeing" or for "anguish" that begins with "g". All I can think of at the moment is "grief":

NA-RG-03{Flinding}[Gwindor] {go-} [son of] {Fuilin}[Guilin] in grief fleeing

. . . which, however, does not quite preserve the meaning.

I suppose another option is to split "Gwindor" from "Guilin" somehow, e.g.:

NA-RG-03{Flinding}[Gwindor] fleeing, {go- Fuilin}[Guilin's son]

.

I'm not sure whether "Guilin's son" is a satisfactory half-line or not. It does at least have the requisite two stresses.

NA-SL-03:

the ancient tongue of the Elves of NA-SL-03{Tûn}[Thingol];

This loses the alliteration, but I suppose it's okay since we still have "ancient" with "Elves".

NA-TI-22: Findegil wrote:

It seems one of the passages were a reformation of the prose text into alliterative verses might be very nice.

I'm afraid I don't follow you here.

NA-RG-06:

and ye glorious NA-RG-06{Gods}[Greats]! How gleam their eyes,

Here I would just use "Valar", leaving simple alliteration between "glorious" and "gleam":

and ye glorious NA-RG-06{Gods}[Valar]! How gleam their eyes,

The extra syllable is not good, but I don't think it's a serious problem.

NA-RG-07:

of NA-RG-07{Flinding}[Gwindor] go-{Fuilin}[Guilin]? Shall {free}great-born NA-RG-07.5{Gnome}[Noldo] {900}

This line is problematic. There is not only the problem of alliteration but also the "go-", which here cannot, I think, simply be replaced by "son of". What about:

of NA-RG-07{Flinding go-Fuilin}[Guilin's son]? Shall Gwindor the free- born (Gnome}

NA-RG-08:

the renown of the NA-RG-08{Gnomes}[Noldor] of Nargothrond! '

I think we could make this "Elves", since we still have simple alliteration between "renown" and "Nargothrond". The extra syllable of "Noldor" makes the first half-line a bit unwieldy.

NA-RG-11:

'No noise I hear', the NA-RG-11 Gnome}[Noldo] answered,

Here, however, "Noldo" is needed for alliteration.

NA-SL-04:

of NA-SL-04{Gnomish lords}[Man and Elves] by night beleaguered {985}

Should be:

of NA-SL-04{Gnomish lords}[Men and Elves] by night beleaguered {985}

But I'm a bit doubtful about it. Surely there are no longer any Men or Elves living in Taur-nu- Fuin. I suppose, though, the line could be read as referring to abandoned dwellings.

NA-SL-05:

that NA-SL-05 {Blodrin Bor}had [Húrin]'s son to his bane {guided}hauled {990}

I may be wrong, but I don't think that simple alliteration of the form A X X A (where the Xs are non-alliterating stresses and the As are alliterating stresses) are allowed. Also, the Orc-band is not exactly hauling Turin to his bane, since in the event Turin survives. Perhaps:

that NA-SL-05 {Blodrin Bor}[Húrin]'s son {to his bane} {guided}had hauled in bonds {990}

{to}from the wood-marches, by the welded hosts

I don't follow this.

NA-RG-15:

'Follow me, NA-RG-15{Flinding}[Friend, dear], from the forest cursed!

I think this could just be:

'Follow me, NA-RG-15{Flinding}[friend], from the forest cursed!

NA-RG-15.5:

and NA-RG-15.5{Flinding}[the Friend] followed fearful after him {1030}

I'd rather simply use "Gwindor" and leave it with simple alliteration:

and NA-RG-15.5{Flinding}[Gwindor] followed fearful after him {1030}

NA-RG-17:

Then NA-RG-17{Flinding}[the Friend] fiercely, though fear shook him: {1105}

Here again I think we can use:

Then NA-RG-17{Flinding}[Gwindor] fiercely, though fear shook him: {1105}

NA-RG-18:

and NA-RG-18{Flinding}[the Friend] there laid his flickering lamp

If we do as I suggest and use "Gwindor" earlier instead of "Friend", the reference here will be unclear. So I would make it:

and NA-RG-18{Flinding}[his friend] there laid his flickering lamp

[Aiwendil]

A Few More Comments - up to NA-RG-24

NA-TI-23:

NA-TI-23<Sil77 {Then in great peril they entered in, and they found Túrin fettered hand and foot and}And tied he was to a withered tree; and all about him knives that had been cast at him were embedded in the trunk, and {he was senseless in a sleep of great weariness}NA-EX-46<GA; Commentary §275 the {dragon- helm}[Dragon-helm]{ - or} was{ it} set on Túrin's head in mockery by the Orcs that tormented him >. But Beleg and Gwindor cut the bonds that held him.

Why is "he was senseless ins a sleep of great weariness" removed? I would say:

NA-TI-23<Sil77 {Then in great peril they entered in, and they found Túrin fettered hand and foot and}And tied he was to a withered tree; and all about him knives that had been cast at him were embedded in the trunk, and he was senseless in a sleep of great wearinessNA-EX-46<GA; Commentary §275 [T]he {dragon- helm}[Dragon-helm]{ - or} was{ it} set on Túrin's head in mockery by the Orcs that tormented him >. But Beleg and Gwindor cut the bonds that held him.

The inserted sentence about the Dragon-helm is a bit awkward, I confess, but I think it's necessary to tell that Turin was sleeping.

NA-EX-47:

But Beleg and Gwindor cut the bonds that held him. NA-EX- 47<editorial bridge But the Lay tells that

I also think that it's awkward to begin two sentences in a row with "But". Maybe:

But though Beleg and Gwindor cut the bonds that held him NA-EX- 47<editorial bridge the Lay tells that

NA-RG-21:

and NA-RG-21{Flinding}[Gwindor] go-{Fuilin}[Guilin] the feet claspéd

Again, I think there's a problem with "go-" in addition to the alliterative problem. All that I can think of at the moment is:

and NA-RG-21faithful{Flinding}[Gwindor] {go-Fuilin} the feet claspéd

NA-RG-23.5:

and the names of knives and NA-RG-23.5{Gnomish}[Elvish] blades

This leaves a non-alliterating line. Maybe:

and the names of NA-RG-23.5 Elvish knives and {Gnomish} blades

he uttered o'er it: even Ogbar's spear
and the glaive of Gaurin whose gleaming stroke
did rive the rocks of Rodrim's hall;
the sword of Saithnar, and the silver blades
of the enchanted children of chains forged
in their deep dungeon; the dirk of Nargil,
the knife of the North in Nogrod smithied;
the sweeping sickle of the slashing tempest,
the lambent lightning's leaping falchion
even Celeg Aithorn that shall cleave the world.

This passage needs some thought. These names, of course, do not appear again. That certainly does not mean that they must be excised, and I certainly see the temptation to keep them. But I wonder about the Elvish.

NA-RG-24:

ere NA-RG-24{Flinding}[Gwindor] knew what fared that night,

I may be wrong, but I don't think that X A X A lines are allowed (A being alliterating stresses and X non-alliterating). I suppose we could do:

ere NA-RG-24{Flinding}[Gwindor] knew what {fared} that night fared,

I think that this kind of line (X A A X) is permissible. Again, though, I may be wrong.

[Findegil]

NA-RG-01: In this particular case Noldor is definitley needed, since it refers to the knowledge of the blue lamps, that were a special sign of the Noldor. It could not been said that Beleg did not know Elves.

Gnome/Gnomes to Elf/Elves or Noldo/Noldor. "Gnomes"; was dropped by Tolkien in LR and later writings, often replaced by Noldor. It would be better artistically to retain the original variation Gnome/Gnomes and Noldo/Noldoli which can be best done by replacing Gnome/Gnomes by Elf/Elves except where a general reference to Elves would not fit, as in "the Gnomes were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not." Then use Noldor.

This was before my time here, but I have of course read it. I have some concerns about it: I agree that it is nice "artistically to retain the original variation Gnome/Gnomes and Noldo/Noldoli". But I don't think Elves is a good replacment for Gnomes. The beter choice would as a replacment for "Gnomes" would be "Displaced Noldor" or "Exiled Noldor" (would a valid short form for thsi bei "Exiles"?) and not "Elves". The Gnomes were a subgroupe of the Noldor. Thus what was done so far was to change a refference from a very special subgroupe to a very common overgroupe.
As jet the discussion had never again comeback to that issue but now I think we should think about it again.
"Exiled Nodor" could not often be used, since it is to blocky, but we should check it some times as a perfect replacment in sense.

NA-RG-02:I do not know if "Greats" was ever used for all the Valar. But here the reference is changed from a larger group to a subgroup of the fromer.

NA-RG-02.5: "an Elf" is okay here if we use "Noldor" in NA-RG-01 since then the reader dose already know that it is a Noldo Beleg is locking at.

NA-RG-03:

NA-RG-03{Flinding go-Fuilin}[Gwindor] fleeing{ in anguish}[, Guilin's son]

Is okay.


NA-SL-03: Is "Doriath" any better then "Thingol"?

NA-TI-22: I agree that we can hardly hope to do this, thus we will not try it.

NA-RG-06: Agreed.

NA-RG-07: What about:

of NA-RG-07{Flinding}[Guilin's son]{ go-Fuilin}? Shall free-born NA-RG-07.5{Gnome}[Gwindor]

NA-RG-07: Agreed.

NA-SL-04: Aiwendil wrote:

But I'm a bit doubtful about it. Surely there are no longer any Men or Elves living in Taur-nu- Fuin. I suppose, though, the line could be read as referring to abandoned dwellings.

I never thought that the dwellings were in Taur-nu-Fuin! I thought of areas like the woods south of Taeglin or the old lands of the Magor south of the Ered Wethrin where Edain might still have lived and of Grey Elves like to Annael maybe anywhere in roughly the same area.

NA-SL-05: Agreed, "to" is realy still okay.

NA-RG-15, NA-RG-15.5, NA-RG-17, NA-RG-18: Agreed.

NA-TI-23, NA-EX-47: I thought it was a bit overdone to hold "he was senseless ins a sleep of great weariness" since exactly that was explained in the sentence before. But If you don't think so we will hold that phrase. But what about:

NA-TI-23<Sil77 {Then in great peril they entered in, and they found Túrin fettered hand and foot and}And tied he was to a withered tree{; and all}. All about him knives that had been cast at him were embedded in the trunk, and NA-EX-46<GA; Commentary §275 the {dragon-helm}[Dragon-helm]{ - or} was{ it} set on Túrin's head in mockery by the Orcs that tormented him>. He[/u]{he} was senseless in a sleep of great weariness{. But}[u], but though Beleg and Gwindor cut the bonds that held him NA-EX-47<editorial bridge the Lay tells that

NA-RG-21, NA-RG-23.5, NA-RG-24: Agreed.

Spellnames: I see your point. But it seems to me you are the best of use to check the elvish.

It seems to me, I am no great help with the poem.
I had hoped very much that we would find some help with this alliterative and (later) ryming issues.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Comments up to NA-RG-37 and discussion


NA-RG-25, -26, -27: These are rather problematic. For the first, we might try:

Flight he sought not at NA-RG-25{Flinding}[the Noldo] leaping

Though I think "Noldo" sounds a bit awkward in that context.

But for NA-RG-26 and -27 I'm completely at loss. If I stare at them long enough, I suppose I might come up with something.

NA-RG-29:

Though NA-RG-29{Flinding}[the Freind] shook him, he felt it not:

"Friend" has no apparent referent here, since Beleg is dead, and Gwindor is not yet Turin's friend. Maybe:

Though NA-RG-29{Flinding}[the Noldo] shook him, he {felt} knew it not:

NA-RG-30: Maybe:

NA-RG-30{Flinding}[Gwindor] {go-Fuilin}[son of Guilin] with {fear} [grief] speechless

NA-RG-31: Maybe:

NA-RG-31{Flinding}[Gwindor] {go-Fuilin} the faithful{-hearted}, Guilin's son

NA-RG-32:

NA-RG-32{Flinding}[Fierce] answered he, and fear left him

I think this is good, but it might be better phrased thus:

NA-RG-32{Flinding}[Fierce] he, answered and fear left him

NA-RG-32.5: I think I'd make this:

Fainting NA-RG-32.5{Flinding}[Gwindor] there fought with him,

. . . leaving simple alliteration.

NA-RG-33: I think we could use:

did NA-RG-33{Flinding}[Gwindor] fashion; where he fell sadly {1400}

That is, if I'm correct about X A A X lines being acceptable. If not, we could simply rearrange it:

{did} NA-RG-33{Flinding}[Gwindor] fashioned; where he fell sadly {1400}

NA-EX-47.5:

NA-EX-47.5{His bow laid he black beside him,}[Belthronding his bow laid he black beside him]

Now I'm going to show my ignorance of Sindarin (Quenya's more my thing) - I'm not sure whether "Belthronding" is stressed on the first or the second syllable. If it's on the second, and if I'm wrong about X A A X lines being permissible, then we'd have to rearrange it thus:

NA-EX-47.5{His bow laid he black beside him,}[His bow Belthronding laid he black beside him]

NA-RG-35: I agree that "Great" is clear here, and is better than Valar since it retains the crossed alliteration.

NA-RG-36: If we follow my earlier suggestions then we can simply un-capitalize "friend" here:

but for NA-RG-36{Flinding }the faithful [friend] he had fared to death,

NA-RG-37: Here I'm tempted to use "Elf" rather than Noldo, and accept simple alliteration:

Renewed in that NA-RG-37{Gnome}[Elf] of Nargothrond {1425}

On to the old discussion:

Findegil wrote:

This was before my time here, but I have of course read it. I have some concerns about it: I agree that it is nice "artistically to retain the original variation Gnome/Gnomes and Noldo/Noldoli". But I don't think Elves is a good replacment for Gnomes. The beter choice would as a replacment for "Gnomes" would be "Displaced Noldor" or "Exiled Noldor" (would a valid short form for thsi bei "Exiles"?) and not "Elves". The Gnomes were a subgroupe of the Noldor. Thus what was done so far was to change a refference from a very special subgroupe to a very common overgroupe.
As jet the discussion had never again comeback to that issue but now I think we should think about it again.
"Exiled Nodor" could not often be used, since it is to blocky, but we should check it some times as a perfect replacment in sense.

Yes, "Elf" does not mean the same thing as "Gnome". But I think I agree with jallanite on this. "Noldo" and "Gnome" are different kinds of words; "Noldo" is a more formal, pedantic kind of term. In ordinary discourse it seems not to be used casually or colloquially, as a means of referring to a person. More often than not, the particular sense of "Gnome" (i.e. its literal meaning = exiled Noldo") is not relevant to the passage.

So I think that, while a sentence like "The Gnomes are exiles" must of course be rendered "The Noldor are exiles", a sentence like "The Gnome drew his sword" would be better rendered: "The Elf drew his sword."

Your suggestion of "Exile(s)" is an excellent one and I think it could be used in place of "Noldo(r)" in many cases of the former kind, and perhaps even in place of "Elf"/"Elves" in many cases of the latter.

NA-RG-02: Findegil wrote:

I do not know if "Greats" was ever used for all the Valar. But here the reference is changed from a larger group to a subgroup of the fromer.

Reading this I'm not sure whether you agree with my preference for "Valar" here or not.

NA-SL-03:

Is "Doriath" any better then "Thingol"?

I think "Thingol" is probably better, since "Doriath" introduces two extra syllables and "Thingol" only one.

NA-RG-07:

of NA-RG-07{Flinding}[Guilin's son]{ go-Fuilin}? Shall free-born NA-RG-07.5{Gnome}[Gwindor]

The problem with this is that the alliteration is then A X X A. I'm fairly sure that simple alliteration with the last stress alliterating is not permissible. I could be wrong, though.

NA-SL-04: Sorry; I read this too quickly and thought for a moment it was describing their passage through the forest, not their journey to the forest in retrospect.

NA-TI-23: Again, sorry; I don't know what I was thinking when I read this before. You're right that we should delete the sentence since we just said the same thing.

About the spell names: It's difficult to know whether the Elvish is still valid, since we don't know what the names are supposed to mean. I'm not an expert on Sindarin phonology, but I suspect that "Ogbar" at least may be obselete. I will have to do some research.

But another point gives me some doubt about Beleg's spell. In the Lay he sings the spell because Turin's bonds cannot be cut by normal weapons. And it is by reason of the might of the spell that his sword cuts so easily through the fetters. But in our version his sword is Anglachel, already a mighty blade with strange powers. I cannot recall whether it is explicitly said that Anglachel and Anguirel are capable of cleaving iron, but considering the absence of the spell from later versions, it seems likely that the special nature of Beleg's sword was considered sufficient for the severing of the bonds.

I wish we had an expert in alliterative verse to help us with these sections. Two questions we must resolve are whether X A A X and A X X A alliteration are permissible. I can do some research on this, though I am at the moment separated from the one book I own that might have the answers.

[Findegil]

Posted by Aiwendil:

I wish we had an expert in alliterative verse to help us with these sections.

I can only underline this! And I am so far from being an expert, that I feel nearly helpless about all the needed changes.

Therefore I will not mention simple agreement fartherone in the discussion.

NA-RG-29: A couple of lines above Gwindor had "cried: 'Magic of Morgoth! A! madness damned!/ with friends thou fightest!'" So I thought he might be called a freind of Turin already. But you suggestions sounds good and is clearer in its meaning.

NA-RG-32: I would prefer your first suggestion even if the grammar is agianst it.

NA-EX-47.5: Your rearangement sounds perfectly well for me.

Gnomes -> Elves or Exiles: I think we are at one mind in this now: No simple replacment but a checkup what term is best used in the context. When ever we reread or FoG in the "changes indicated version" we should have an open eye for this.

NA-RG-02: I was temped in this case to stick to "Great", since if the Valar as a whole do rejoice, then that is true as well for the Great in particular. But it is a minor point and Valar as a replacment works for me.

NA-RG-07: Sorry this was a misprint. I would have liked to suggest:

of NA-RG-07{Flinding go-Fuilin }[Guilin's son]? Shall {free}[great]-born NA-RG-07.5{Gnome}[Gwindor]

NA-Ti-23: So we have:

NA-TI-23<Sil77 {Then in great peril they entered in, and they found Túrin fettered hand and foot and}And tied he was to a withered tree; and all about him knives that had been cast at him were embedded in the trunk, and {he was senseless in a sleep of great weariness} NA-EX-46<GA; Commentary §275 the {dragon-helm}[Dragon-helm]{ - or} was{ it} set on Túrin's head in mockery by the Orcs that tormented him>. But though Beleg and Gwindor cut the bonds that held him NA-EX-47<editorial bridge the Lay tells that

Spellnames: Aiwendil wrote:

... but considering the absence of the spell from later versions, it seems likely that the special nature of Beleg's sword was considered sufficient for the severing of the bonds.

I take your point. Anglachel is a special balde, but the absence of the wetting of the sword done with the uttering of spells sufficinet for such a occasion is most likley due to compression. Considering that BEleg had run all the way from Amon Rudh without sleep, and that on Amon Rudh he had surely done a lot of hard fighting with Anglachel it is more than likley that the blade was bit notchy. Thus with a false attemp with other blades on the fetters, it seems very likely to me that Beleg would wet the blade before using it in such a occasion.
In short I am still holding to the spells, even if they were not as neccesary as in the original poem.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

NA-RG-32: I put a critical comma in the wrong place in my last suggestion. It should have been:

NA-RG-32{Flinding}[Fierce] he answered, and fear left him

. . . which I think sounds better than "answered he".

The spell: I suppose your reasoning makes sense. I am still a little unsure, but I can definitely see keeping the spell.

Further comments up to NA-RG-55

NA-RG-38: I agree with your use of "Fingon" in place of "Faery". But what do you make of the "seven kindreds"?

where sleep the swords of seven kindreds,

I am not sure whether this is a reference to some earlier conception of the divisions of Men or Elves.

NA-RG-40:

Thus NA-RG-40{Flinding}[the Friend] faltered, faintly stirring

I think we can just use:

Thus NA-RG-40{Flinding}[Gwindor] faltered, faintly stirring

NA-SL-08: I agree with the deletion, but in view of it I would not start a new sentence at line 1481:

There the twain enfolded phantom twilight {1475} and dim mazes dark, unholy NA-SL-08{, in Nan Dungorthin where nameless gods have shrouded shrines in shadows secret, more old than Morgoth or the ancient lords the golden Gods of the guarded West}. {1480} [B]but the ghostly dwellers of that grey valley

NA-RG-42: I would say:

NA-RG-42{Flinding}[Gwindor] fancied, fell, unwholesome

NA-RG-44: We might use "Gwindor" here instead of "fearful" but I'm undecided on which is to be preferred - saving the precise sense or saving the alliteration.

NA-SL-09:
We must of course delete the reference to fugitives from the battle, but your line does not have the requisite alliteration. All I can think of at the moment is:

NA-SL-09{that death and thraldom in the dreadful throes
of Nirnaith Ornoth, a number scanty, escaped unscathed.} Thence skirting wild [the wooded hills,]

There's a typo in line 1548 - "Nan-thatren" for "Nan-tathren".

NA-RG-51: This is a case where I'd go for "Elf" instead of "Noldo", leaving simple alliteration.

NA-RG-52: I would say:

Then NA-RG-52{Flinding}[Gwindor] fearful lest fresh madness

NA-RG-53:

NA-RG-53 {But Flinding the faithful}[The Faithful friend Gwindor] feared no longer;

If "friend" is considered a stress, then the first half-line is too long; if it's not, then it doesn't contribute to the alliterative scheme and is thus useless. So I would make it:

NA-RG-53 {But Flinding the faithful}[But faithful Gwindor ] feared no longer;

NA-RG-55: This can be:

and fared to NA-RG-55{Flinding}[Gwindor], and flung him down

[Aiwendil]

Also - I did some checking and found at least one source on the internet that says that X A A X alliteration is allowed. But I have yet to notice an example of it in Tolkien.