Authorial Detachment or "The Vanishing Harper" - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Mithalwen · 10-05-2005, 12:10 PM

quite deliberately separated from their own people, alienated ....., set apart .

Cannot help thinking of another musician this could be applied to.... Edith Tolkien....

Anguirel · 10-05-2005, 12:24 PM

davem, I must admit that I've read Giles but not Smith. He sounds like a worthy addition to this select band of lost narrators, though, and I appreciate your points. Your mention of the ending of the Silmarillion proper is also helpful. I know that, personally, it was the sense of loss that attracted me in largest measure to Tolkien; the fading of the Elves and Legolas' sea-longing were one of the most beautiful aspects of LOTR, and I think perhaps the reason I love the Silmarillion and some Unfinished Tales like the Narn still more is that loss pours out of them at every point.

Mithalwen, I must confess that I don't know what you're referring to; I'm hazy on Tolkien's life, though I read a book about the influence of World War One on him...the only bells that faintly ring are the facts of Edith's long separation from Tolkien when they were engaged, but I feel I'm barking up completely the wrong tree-do tell...

Mithalwen · 10-05-2005, 12:35 PM

Edith Tolkien was an extremely gifted pianist. Her marriage to Tolkien not only put paid to a professional career but stymied an amateur outlet for her talents since he insisted on her conversion to Catholicism. Edith had played the music for services in her own Anglican church. From the biography it seems that Edith led quite an isolated life since she didn't really fit in with the academic wives and Oxford was a very male environment. I am not saying Tolkien didn't love her but to a modern woman - this one anyway - it seems an unnecessarily limited life....

Anguirel · 10-05-2005, 12:55 PM

Thanks for the clarification Mithalwen. I find Nancy Mitford the best source for the hell of don's wives...if not particularly borne out in my experience. Interesting, of course, that Luthien was a musician of note, though a vocalist, not an instrumentalist. We do not know if she continues to sing in wedded bliss. Are the gravestone carvings Tolkien's tribute to a wife's sacrifice of tradition (Anglicanism; read here Elves?) and music?

Racking my brains for more musicians, I find only Tinfang, about whom I know practically nothing. I've a vague idea that he is of the Vanyar and as such does zilch...but I could be misremembering.

Mithalwen · 10-05-2005, 01:05 PM

Hmm not sure if that is likely .... but a debate for elsewhere.

Arwen sings (rather poignantly) a song of Valinor in the court of the fountain at Minas Tirith.

From his name we might assume that Lindir in the Hall of Fire is a musician. Elrond carries a harp as he leaves Middle Earth. I always half assumed that music was something that all elves did at least competently and that the few named were remarkable even by their standards.

Anguirel · 10-05-2005, 01:14 PM

You'd expect Elrond, as Maglor's foster-son, to be a harper with a higher standard than most...I'd forgotten his harp. Well picked up.

We could even include, at a stretch, Gimli; his song of Durin was a kind of recording, I seem to remember he recovered the Book of Mazarbul, and he was as sundered from his folk at death as Dwarves can get...

But perhaps we should attempt to draw more conclusions from the solid examples we've got rather than contort other characters to fit the pattern. Though I do think Gimli just about makes it.

Another harper, Finrod Felagund, has a harp on his coat of arms and is renowned for his "song of staying" against Sauron, but...ouch...does not die apart from his people at all; quite the reverse. From this I deduce that he was more a doer of deeds in his art than a recorder of them...maybe...

Mithalwen · 10-05-2005, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Another harper, Finrod Felagund, has a harp on his coat of arms and is renowned for his "song of staying" against Sauron, but...ouch...does not die apart from his people at all; quite the reverse. From this I deduce that he was more a doer of deeds in his art than a recorder of them...maybe...

Is this a good moment to plug my old htread "Music and Magic in Middle Earth"?

10-05-2005, 12:10 PM	#1
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	quite deliberately separated from their own people, alienated ....., set apart . Cannot help thinking of another musician this could be applied to.... Edith Tolkien.... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

10-05-2005, 12:24 PM	#2
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	davem, I must admit that I've read Giles but not Smith. He sounds like a worthy addition to this select band of lost narrators, though, and I appreciate your points. Your mention of the ending of the Silmarillion proper is also helpful. I know that, personally, it was the sense of loss that attracted me in largest measure to Tolkien; the fading of the Elves and Legolas' sea-longing were one of the most beautiful aspects of LOTR, and I think perhaps the reason I love the Silmarillion and some Unfinished Tales like the Narn still more is that loss pours out of them at every point. Mithalwen, I must confess that I don't know what you're referring to; I'm hazy on Tolkien's life, though I read a book about the influence of World War One on him...the only bells that faintly ring are the facts of Edith's long separation from Tolkien when they were engaged, but I feel I'm barking up completely the wrong tree-do tell... __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

10-05-2005, 12:35 PM	#3
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Edith Tolkien was an extremely gifted pianist. Her marriage to Tolkien not only put paid to a professional career but stymied an amateur outlet for her talents since he insisted on her conversion to Catholicism. Edith had played the music for services in her own Anglican church. From the biography it seems that Edith led quite an isolated life since she didn't really fit in with the academic wives and Oxford was a very male environment. I am not saying Tolkien didn't love her but to a modern woman - this one anyway - it seems an unnecessarily limited life.... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

10-05-2005, 12:55 PM	#4
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	Thanks for the clarification Mithalwen. I find Nancy Mitford the best source for the hell of don's wives...if not particularly borne out in my experience. Interesting, of course, that Luthien was a musician of note, though a vocalist, not an instrumentalist. We do not know if she continues to sing in wedded bliss. Are the gravestone carvings Tolkien's tribute to a wife's sacrifice of tradition (Anglicanism; read here Elves?) and music? Racking my brains for more musicians, I find only Tinfang, about whom I know practically nothing. I've a vague idea that he is of the Vanyar and as such does zilch...but I could be misremembering. __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

10-05-2005, 01:05 PM	#5
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Hmm not sure if that is likely .... but a debate for elsewhere. Arwen sings (rather poignantly) a song of Valinor in the court of the fountain at Minas Tirith. From his name we might assume that Lindir in the Hall of Fire is a musician. Elrond carries a harp as he leaves Middle Earth. I always half assumed that music was something that all elves did at least competently and that the few named were remarkable even by their standards. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

10-05-2005, 01:14 PM	#6
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	You'd expect Elrond, as Maglor's foster-son, to be a harper with a higher standard than most...I'd forgotten his harp. Well picked up. We could even include, at a stretch, Gimli; his song of Durin was a kind of recording, I seem to remember he recovered the Book of Mazarbul, and he was as sundered from his folk at death as Dwarves can get... But perhaps we should attempt to draw more conclusions from the solid examples we've got rather than contort other characters to fit the pattern. Though I do think Gimli just about makes it. Another harper, Finrod Felagund, has a harp on his coat of arms and is renowned for his "song of staying" against Sauron, but...ouch...does not die apart from his people at all; quite the reverse. From this I deduce that he was more a doer of deeds in his art than a recorder of them...maybe... __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso